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Old 08-16-2017, 06:31 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Culling free range and large acreage only makes a visible difference if you have two or more subsets of genetics... say... DMP or are releasing deer from a breeder...

Then... obviously culling native animals makes more of a difference, because you are increasing the percentage of that smaller subset with a higher scoring antler potential genetic baseline, which can then expand (and deteriorate as you go farther away from selective breeding) and give your herd a different, blended genetic baseline that will rapidly fall from the released genetic baseline, but settle over time on a baseline slowly approaching your baseline from before.

Make sense? heheh
Our deer are totally native - no introduced deer or breeding - old, established south texas ranch. We have many management techniques we use but culling does and inferior bucks is certainly one of them - seems to have worked for us
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:06 PM   #52
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Remember, I'm just trying to communicate a concept using the hypothetical scenario described above. Don't get hung up on the numbers.

If you do the math correctly, the 2 approaches result in the population curves in the attached graphic. Buck harvest is not an effective means of controlling population growth and quality of natural forage. I know everyone is well aware of importance of doe harvest, that's not the point here. The point is, it's false to justify killing a buck in the name of habitat quality. The removal of a male mouth means nothing in the long term big picture, as illustrated in the graph. You can kill 30% of the bucks each year and the population will grow if doe are ignored. Conversely, by killing 25% of the doe each year you can prevent population growth and get comfortably by killing only 10% of the bucks. How many bucks you kill is a moot point with regards to habitat quality.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:46 PM   #53
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Remember, I'm just trying to communicate a concept using the hypothetical scenario described above. Don't get hung up on the numbers.

If you do the math correctly, the 2 approaches result in the population curves in the attached graphic. Buck harvest is not an effective means of controlling population growth and quality of natural forage. I know everyone is well aware of importance of doe harvest, that's not the point here. The point is, it's false to justify killing a buck in the name of habitat quality. The removal of a male mouth means nothing in the long term big picture, as illustrated in the graph. You can kill 30% of the bucks each year and the population will grow if doe are ignored. Conversely, by killing 25% of the doe each year you can prevent population growth and get comfortably by killing only 10% of the bucks. How many bucks you kill is a moot point with regards to habitat quality.
So what if you kill BOTH?? The study is one or the other.

I think you are ignoring the impact inferior bucks have by breeding - forget the mouths to feed - inferior bucks will produce more inferior bucks. Ask any cattle rancher if they breed their inferior bulls.

If you take out the inferior bucks while leaving the superior bucks to breed then long term you will produce more superior bucks - pure and simple. I am not a biologist nor claim to be an expert - all I know is our long term results from killing does and inferior bucks has worked amazingly -

Last edited by TKK; 08-16-2017 at 08:55 PM..
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:20 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
Remember, I'm just trying to communicate a concept using the hypothetical scenario described above. Don't get hung up on the numbers.

If you do the math correctly, the 2 approaches result in the population curves in the attached graphic. Buck harvest is not an effective means of controlling population growth and quality of natural forage. I know everyone is well aware of importance of doe harvest, that's not the point here. The point is, it's false to justify killing a buck in the name of habitat quality. The removal of a male mouth means nothing in the long term big picture, as illustrated in the graph. You can kill 30% of the bucks each year and the population will grow if doe are ignored. Conversely, by killing 25% of the doe each year you can prevent population growth and get comfortably by killing only 10% of the bucks. How many bucks you kill is a moot point with regards to habitat quality.
Geez your hard headed. Lol

It's not ONE OR THE OTHER
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:02 PM   #55
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I think semantics plays in to a lot of these conversations.Culling, management deer, trophy buck....it's all relative.

The path we stick to and have had good luck with { both high fence and low fence properties } is not to shoot any buck before he is 4 yrs old and frequently older. Starting about 4 we will remove bucks that are obviously inferior to our norm . We have a lot of bucks and feed heavily. Been doing this a long time. We don't start taking the top end trophies till at least 6 and usually much older. This creates the appearance of having shifted the genetics by leaving more of the higher quality bucks roaming the ranch for more years. In fact many die of old age.


What we find is that even the lessor quality bucks frequently make someone really happy and are a trophy in their eyes. Many folks rarely get to see fully mature bucks. I see no reason to ever shoot a 3 yr old or younger buck on our properties.

I do view removing the bucks we do as part of population control though it is not significant excepting it's effect on ratios. It is the overall program ...bucks, does and habitat mgt. feed, that all add up. In no way do I consider harvest as having any impact on genetics. The pool is way too deep for that. However I do consider nutrition as the key to unlocking genetic potential and evolving herd performance over time.

And one thing I believe firmly... it is not the bucks you remove that make the difference, it is the bucks you leave in the herd that become the trophies.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:02 PM   #56
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Geez your hard headed. Lol


It's not ONE OR THE OTHER
Agree - To Top of Texas -----

Watch the video and tell me that we are doing no good by culling. Also tell me what we should be doing differently.
Not trying to debate here but the proof is in the pudding as they say. With all due respect - You keep doing studies while we keep growing big deer

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Old 08-17-2017, 12:47 AM   #57
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Geez, now y'all sound like my wife. LOL.

Like I said, I'm attempting to demonstrate a concept, culling bucks doesnt help your habitat whether it's either extreme or somewhere in the middle. Don't get hung up on the numbers.

The example isn't a study, just a hypothetical model.

With regards to culling producing more high quality deer...thats for another thread.

Now if y'all will excuse me, I have to go and try to resuscitate that horse.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:05 AM   #58
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Really no such thing as " culling", in all honestly unless you are on a well managed HF ranch you're just killing. There has been many studies done on the subject..

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Old 08-17-2017, 07:47 AM   #59
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Geez, now y'all sound like my wife. LOL.

Like I said, I'm attempting to demonstrate a concept, culling bucks doesnt help your habitat whether it's either extreme or somewhere in the middle. Don't get hung up on the numbers.

The example isn't a study, just a hypothetical model.

With regards to culling producing more high quality deer...thats for another thread.

Now if y'all will excuse me, I have to go and try to resuscitate that horse.
My wife isn't anywhere near as hard headed as you are!

Every mouth (regardless of sex) taken off your ranch will improve the quantity of forage for others. You seem to think in your hypothetical there that you either take only Doe or only bucks. I help on a ranch that takes approx 70 bucks a year (along with about 4 times that many Doe)...in your theory the population and habitat impact would be the same if they only took 20 bucks a year??? Not rational.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:40 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by txwhitetail View Post
My wife isn't anywhere near as hard headed as you are!

Every mouth (regardless of sex) taken off your ranch will improve the quantity of forage for others. You seem to think in your hypothetical there that you either take only Doe or only bucks. I help on a ranch that takes approx 70 bucks a year (along with about 4 times that many Doe)...in your theory the population and habitat impact would be the same if they only took 20 bucks a year??? Not rational.

Actually I think he is saying the exact opposite but I may be wrong. These cull don't cull threads are so confusing. I am under the impression that he is saying that culling more does than bucks is the most effective way to control the population, which seems to be exactly what you are saying is done on your ranch.

Not trying to start another argument just seems like there are a couple people arguing the same points. Doesn't really matter to me either way. Our place is small with a great b2d ratio and minimal neighboring pleasure, so we just shoot bucks that we feel are 5 or older and does based on what the cameras are telling us.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:06 AM   #61
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Actually I think he is saying the exact opposite but I may be wrong. These cull don't cull threads are so confusing. I am under the impression that he is saying that culling more does than bucks is the most effective way to control the population, which seems to be exactly what you are saying is done on your ranch.

Not trying to start another argument just seems like there are a couple people arguing the same points. Doesn't really matter to me either way. Our place is small with a great b2d ratio and minimal neighboring pleasure, so we just shoot bucks that we feel are 5 or older and does based on what the cameras are telling us.
He stated in several posts that shooting bucks doesn't improve habitat/forage availability.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:30 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by txwhitetail View Post
My wife isn't anywhere near as hard headed as you are!

Every mouth (regardless of sex) taken off your ranch will improve the quantity of forage for others. You seem to think in your hypothetical there that you either take only Doe or only bucks. I help on a ranch that takes approx 70 bucks a year (along with about 4 times that many Doe)...in your theory the population and habitat impact would be the same if they only took 20 bucks a year??? Not rational.
My persistence stems from the desire to be understood and for hunters across Texas to make good decisions on the property they hunt. You're continuing and repeated comments regarding male mouths off the habitat continue to demonstrate that you are missing the concept and getting hung up on little tidbits. It is as if I'm showing you a new compound bow and you keep criticizing it becasue you don't like my peep sight.

Perhaps this approach will help. Killing one buck (150 lb) will conserve 1640 lb of natural forage. That is 3% of his body weight per day for one year. Acknowledged.

With that acknowledged, I repeat yet again, killing bucks is not an effective means of habitat management. Please stop telling people that killing cull bucks is justified in the name of habitat management.

I have witnessed firsthand, on numerous occasions, a hunter passing up a doe for fear the rifle shot might scare away and approaching cull buck. That's totally backwards. If antler quality and habitat quality are the hunters goals then he should pass up a cull buck for fear the rifle shot might scare off an approaching Doe.

TV hunting shows, outdoor magazines, and now forums have done a good job of selling culling as a necessary practice for herd management. And it is an easy sale. How many Hunters would not like to kill more bucks? Plus it gives the hunter the notion of control, in that, he can make it happen simply through bullet management. It has become so ingrained in our hunting culture that many Hunters are bunkered in their belief of the practice, so much so, that even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence that it is not effective in improving antlers, that they grasp for other justification to defend the belief and practice.

Killing bucks is NOT an effective means of habitat management. Please, do not get hung up on the 1640 lb of forage. You can conserve more tonnage of natural forage through appropriate doe harvest and never have the need to kill a single cull buck. Please stop telling people that culling bucks is good for the habitat. If the goal is good habitat, that is accomplished through doe harvest, not buck harvest.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:36 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by txwhitetail View Post
He stated in several posts that shooting bucks doesn't improve habitat/forage availability.
No he said over and over that shooting a cull buck doesn't do as much good as culling a doe would do.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:41 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
My persistence stems from the desire to be understood and for hunters across Texas to make good decisions on the property they hunt. You're continuing and repeated comments regarding male mouths off the habitat continue to demonstrate that you are missing the concept and getting hung up on little tidbits. It is as if I'm showing you a new compound bow and you keep criticizing it becasue you don't like my peep sight.

Perhaps this approach will help. Killing one buck (150 lb) will conserve 1640 lb of natural forage. That is 3% of his body weight per day for one year. Acknowledged.

With that acknowledged, I repeat yet again, killing bucks is not an effective means of habitat management. Please stop telling people that killing cull bucks is justified in the name of habitat management.

I have witnessed firsthand, on numerous occasions, a hunter passing up a doe for fear the rifle shot might scare away and approaching cull buck. That's totally backwards. If antler quality and habitat quality are the hunters goals then he should pass up a cull buck for fear the rifle shot might scare off an approaching Doe.

TV hunting shows, outdoor magazines, and now forums have done a good job of selling culling as a necessary practice for herd management. And it is an easy sale. How many Hunters would not like to kill more bucks? Plus it gives the hunter the notion of control, in that, he can make it happen simply through bullet management. It has become so ingrained in our hunting culture that many Hunters are bunkered in their belief of the practice, so much so, that even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence that it is not effective in improving antlers, that they grasp for other justification to defend the belief and practice.

Killing bucks is NOT an effective means of habitat management. Please, do not get hung up on the 1640 lb of forage. You can conserve more tonnage of natural forage through appropriate doe harvest and never have the need to kill a single cull buck. Please stop telling people that culling bucks is good for the habitat. If the goal is good habitat, that is accomplished through doe harvest, not buck harvest.
Forget for the moment culling inferior bucks for habitat. What about the inferior bucks continuing to breed - (and yes I know part of the equation is the doe). Why would I want a 4 year old 6 or 8 point with zero potential to continue to breed our does when I can limit that and have my better bucks breeding those does?

And please do not tell me that a buck will only breed a few does so it is no big deal. If a lot of inferior bucks are left alive and they all breed "a few does" then why would I want that? I want all our does available to be bred by as many top end bucks as I can.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:52 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by TKK View Post
Forget for the moment culling inferior bucks for habitat. What about the inferior bucks continuing to breed - (and yes I know part of the equation is the doe). Why would I want a 4 year old 6 or 8 point with zero potential to continue to breed our does when I can limit that and have my better bucks breeding those does?

And please do not tell me that a buck will only breed a few does so it is no big deal. If a lot of inferior bucks are left alive and they all breed "a few does" then why would I want that? I want all our does available to be bred by as many top end bucks as I can.
I agree with that theory for breeding purposes, and I think by implicating both methods you will provide the best herd health possible.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:03 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
My persistence stems from the desire to be understood and for hunters across Texas to make good decisions on the property they hunt. You're continuing and repeated comments regarding male mouths off the habitat continue to demonstrate that you are missing the concept and getting hung up on little tidbits. It is as if I'm showing you a new compound bow and you keep criticizing it becasue you don't like my peep sight.

Perhaps this approach will help. Killing one buck (150 lb) will conserve 1640 lb of natural forage. That is 3% of his body weight per day for one year. Acknowledged.

With that acknowledged, I repeat yet again, killing bucks is not an effective means of habitat management. Please stop telling people that killing cull bucks is justified in the name of habitat management.

I have witnessed firsthand, on numerous occasions, a hunter passing up a doe for fear the rifle shot might scare away and approaching cull buck. That's totally backwards. If antler quality and habitat quality are the hunters goals then he should pass up a cull buck for fear the rifle shot might scare off an approaching Doe.

TV hunting shows, outdoor magazines, and now forums have done a good job of selling culling as a necessary practice for herd management. And it is an easy sale. How many Hunters would not like to kill more bucks? Plus it gives the hunter the notion of control, in that, he can make it happen simply through bullet management. It has become so ingrained in our hunting culture that many Hunters are bunkered in their belief of the practice, so much so, that even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence that it is not effective in improving antlers, that they grasp for other justification to defend the belief and practice.

Killing bucks is NOT an effective means of habitat management. Please, do not get hung up on the 1640 lb of forage. You can conserve more tonnage of natural forage through appropriate doe harvest and never have the need to kill a single cull buck. Please stop telling people that culling bucks is good for the habitat. If the goal is good habitat, that is accomplished through doe harvest, not buck harvest.

Man, you are completely disregarding scenarios where the ratio is inverted, and scenarios where you have highly variable fawn crops, where a mature age class of bucks could be present without a large recruited fawn crop that year.

In that case killing mature bucks is ABSOLUTELY habitat management, because you are removing animals that don't have real replacements.

I mean... ?????

There are very few places in my neck of the woods where deer herds behave like they do on spreadsheets.

Theoretical deer don't eat as much natural forage as real deer.

Last edited by Encinal; 08-17-2017 at 11:09 AM..
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:10 AM   #67
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I think the bigger issue is...... why are people so obsessed with what other hunters legally harvest, on a property that they will never hunt, that has a deer herd for which they will never see?

Everyone has made great points! With that being said, mange how you want. If you don't like the management program in place, find somewhere else.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:25 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
My persistence stems from the desire to be understood and for hunters across Texas to make good decisions on the property they hunt. You're continuing and repeated comments regarding male mouths off the habitat continue to demonstrate that you are missing the concept and getting hung up on little tidbits. It is as if I'm showing you a new compound bow and you keep criticizing it becasue you don't like my peep sight.

Perhaps this approach will help. Killing one buck (150 lb) will conserve 1640 lb of natural forage. That is 3% of his body weight per day for one year. Acknowledged.

With that acknowledged, I repeat yet again, killing bucks is not an effective means of habitat management. Please stop telling people that killing cull bucks is justified in the name of habitat management.

I have witnessed firsthand, on numerous occasions, a hunter passing up a doe for fear the rifle shot might scare away and approaching cull buck. That's totally backwards. If antler quality and habitat quality are the hunters goals then he should pass up a cull buck for fear the rifle shot might scare off an approaching Doe.

TV hunting shows, outdoor magazines, and now forums have done a good job of selling culling as a necessary practice for herd management. And it is an easy sale. How many Hunters would not like to kill more bucks? Plus it gives the hunter the notion of control, in that, he can make it happen simply through bullet management. It has become so ingrained in our hunting culture that many Hunters are bunkered in their belief of the practice, so much so, that even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence that it is not effective in improving antlers, that they grasp for other justification to defend the belief and practice.

Killing bucks is NOT an effective means of habitat management. Please, do not get hung up on the 1640 lb of forage. You can conserve more tonnage of natural forage through appropriate doe harvest and never have the need to kill a single cull buck. Please stop telling people that culling bucks is good for the habitat. If the goal is good habitat, that is accomplished through doe harvest, not buck harvest.
You say killing a buck can conserve 1640 lbs of forage then in the next paragraph you say it isn't effective at improving habitat quantity! You sir are the one that can't see the Forrest for the trees! You are trying to hard to get people to agree with you. You are responding to some folks on this thread with VERY extensive whitetail management backgrounds. NONE of those have said that Doe harvest isn't very important. What I am saying is buck harvest is also VERY important in herd management and habitat/carrying capacity management.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:02 PM   #69
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I'm so confused..... I Don't know what to shoot now...
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:55 PM   #70
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I'm so confused..... I Don't know what to shoot now...
Shoot em all !
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:04 PM   #71
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Shoot em all !
You know I'm from La.... You don't have to twist our arm...
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:57 PM   #72
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[quote=8pointer;12657867]I think the bigger issue is...... why are people so obsessed with what other hunters legally harvest, on a property that they will never hunt, that has a deer herd for which they will never see?

Everyone has made great points! With that being said, mange how you want. If you don't like the management program in place, find somewhere else.[
/QUOTE]

No ****
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:43 PM   #73
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You are responding to some folks on this thread with VERY extensive whitetail management backgrounds.
Yes sir, I am, I can tell. My hope is that there are others viewing this debate.

Others, who don't have large, or high fence, sexy ranches where they can pass on 160" deer and have confidence they'll see him next year at 180, nor pour out limitless amounts of protein feed, nor reap the benefits of protein feed on mature bucks, nor fathom the "problem" of having more bucks than doe. The kind of hunter who makes up a good proportion of the hunters on this forum, who work and struggle all year to save enough money for a small lease and supplies, and worry over a nice buck surviving the neighbors, and sweat over 13 inch spreads, and sit in blinds before sunrise imagining a giant buck (like what they see in this forum) emerging from the woods, and who hope they may actually see a mature buck someday. They are hit with a barrage from TV, magazines, TPWD, and forums encouraging and justifying "culling". They see trailcam photos of monster deer from properties that cull and claim it as an important part of their success. They start thinking...it should work for me.

There are at least 3 posts in the forum, right now, as I type, asking for input on killing a particular buck due to undesirable antler traits on small low fence property. It is this group that I aim, and hope, to sway. To steer them away from implementing a practice that will have the opposite result of the objective and will do no more than decrease the number of bucks on their property and further decrease the odds of ever seeing a mature buck.

I have a passion for helping people, and share in their joys of success, empathize with their failures, and desire to prevent them from error. If I saw anyone walking over a tall bridge that I knew was weak and dangerous, I would shout "Watch out! Turn back! Turn back!". How inappropriate for a guy standing on a nearby bridge that has strong foundations, made of steel, and 10 times the size and strength to say, "Nah, don't listen to him, go on, you'll be fine. Look at my bridge."

I will attempt to shout in print - DON'T CULL! DON'T CULL! RUN AWAY!
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:51 PM   #74
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You go on and on about your mission but you have some very flawed thoughts on population management for any size ranch. Biggest majority of Texas is over the basic carrying capacity number for their area and you are recommending not taking less desire able bucks out of the herd as a population reduction technique.

If you want to be the knight in shining armor at least do some prep and homework before shouting bad info from the rooftops.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:55 PM   #75
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Yes sir, I am, I can tell. My hope is that there are others viewing this debate.

Others, who don't have large, or high fence, sexy ranches where they can pass on 160" deer and have confidence they'll see him next year at 180, nor pour out limitless amounts of protein feed, nor reap the benefits of protein feed on mature bucks, nor fathom the "problem" of having more bucks than doe. The kind of hunter who makes up a good proportion of the hunters on this forum, who work and struggle all year to save enough money for a small lease and supplies, and worry over a nice buck surviving the neighbors, and sweat over 13 inch spreads, and sit in blinds before sunrise imagining a giant buck (like what they see in this forum) emerging from the woods, and who hope they may actually see a mature buck someday. They are hit with a barrage from TV, magazines, TPWD, and forums encouraging and justifying "culling". They see trailcam photos of monster deer from properties that cull and claim it as an important part of their success. They start thinking...it should work for me.

There are at least 3 posts in the forum, right now, as I type, asking for input on killing a particular buck due to undesirable antler traits on small low fence property. It is this group that I aim, and hope, to sway. To steer them away from implementing a practice that will have the opposite result of the objective and will do no more than decrease the number of bucks on their property and further decrease the odds of ever seeing a mature buck.

I have a passion for helping people, and share in their joys of success, empathize with their failures, and desire to prevent them from error. If I saw anyone walking over a tall bridge that I knew was weak and dangerous, I would shout "Watch out! Turn back! Turn back!". How inappropriate for a guy standing on a nearby bridge that has strong foundations, made of steel, and 10 times the size and strength to say, "Nah, don't listen to him, go on, you'll be fine. Look at my bridge."

I will attempt to shout in print - DON'T CULL! DON'T CULL! RUN AWAY!
That's the problem with your examples and arguments, you are trying to paint all properties with a broad brush. Yes "culling" inferior genetics for the sake of genetics only doesn't apply to 50-70% of the properties hunted by TBHers. Reducing mouths whether they are male or female is what is important with prob majority of the properties hunted by TBHers that are hunting private properties. All txwhiteail is saying is if your gonna shoot does and bucks to reduce mouths, why not shoot the lesser quality bucks in different age groups. Has nothing to do with passing 160" bucks, HF/LF or how much feeder you put out. Harvest the number of deer you feel you need to maintain a healthy herd and good range conditions. After you shoot the trophy you want and you need to take another buck to keep your ratios correct, choose a lesser buck rather than a nice young trophy potential buck.

Pretty simple if you ask me.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:58 PM   #76
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That's the problem with your examples and arguments, you are trying to paint all properties with a broad brush. Yes "culling" inferior genetics for the sake of genetics only doesn't apply to 50-70% of the properties hunted by TBHers. Reducing mouths whether they are male or female is what is important with prob majority of the properties hunted by TBHers that are hunting private properties. All txwhiteail is saying is if your gonna shoot does and bucks to reduce mouths, why not shoot the lesser quality bucks in different age groups. Has nothing to do with passing 160" bucks, HF/LF or how much feeder you put out. Harvest the number of deer you feel you need to maintain a healthy herd and good range conditions. After you shoot the trophy you want and you need to take another buck to keep your ratios correct, choose a lesser buck rather than a nice young trophy potential buck.

Pretty simple if you ask me.
In his scenarios you would only shoot off the top end every year. I think we have all seen leases that have done that for years and what they have left.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:00 PM   #77
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Some people dont get it and never will. Becomes a useless exercise at some point. Think we will keep our current biologist thank you

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Old 08-17-2017, 09:03 PM   #78
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Some people dont get it and never will. Becomes a useless exercise at some point. Think we will keep our crrent biologist thank you
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:29 PM   #79
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Every property is different in different parts of Texas. I applaud anyone trying to give management info and starting these debates. Whether we all agree or not it's good to have discussions. Brings up info for others.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:04 PM   #80
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Yes sir, I am, I can tell. My hope is that there are others viewing this debate.

Others, who don't have large, or high fence, sexy ranches where they can pass on 160" deer and have confidence they'll see him next year at 180, nor pour out limitless amounts of protein feed, nor reap the benefits of protein feed on mature bucks, nor fathom the "problem" of having more bucks than doe. The kind of hunter who makes up a good proportion of the hunters on this forum, who work and struggle all year to save enough money for a small lease and supplies, and worry over a nice buck surviving the neighbors, and sweat over 13 inch spreads, and sit in blinds before sunrise imagining a giant buck (like what they see in this forum) emerging from the woods, and who hope they may actually see a mature buck someday. They are hit with a barrage from TV, magazines, TPWD, and forums encouraging and justifying "culling". They see trailcam photos of monster deer from properties that cull and claim it as an important part of their success. They start thinking...it should work for me.

There are at least 3 posts in the forum, right now, as I type, asking for input on killing a particular buck due to undesirable antler traits on small low fence property. It is this group that I aim, and hope, to sway. To steer them away from implementing a practice that will have the opposite result of the objective and will do no more than decrease the number of bucks on their property and further decrease the odds of ever seeing a mature buck.

I have a passion for helping people, and share in their joys of success, empathize with their failures, and desire to prevent them from error. If I saw anyone walking over a tall bridge that I knew was weak and dangerous, I would shout "Watch out! Turn back! Turn back!". How inappropriate for a guy standing on a nearby bridge that has strong foundations, made of steel, and 10 times the size and strength to say, "Nah, don't listen to him, go on, you'll be fine. Look at my bridge."

I will attempt to shout in print - DON'T CULL! DON'T CULL! RUN AWAY!
See this is the antithesis of my thought process.

Your school of thought is, don't have higher level conversations about unique scenarios in deer management, because people that are less educated about management are going to take those thought processes and apply them out of context to their situation and end up worse off than they were before.

My school of thought is, if someone wants to talk about their specific situation let's talk about it.
If someone wants to propose a solution or theory that is debatable, lets debate it.
If someone wants to argue an opinion or postulate on an observation let's talk about it.
At no point have I ever hid information or a thought process on this forum from anyone, layman or professional because I was worried about their ability to process it or implement it correctly. I don't present just part of the story because that's the only part I think people can process.

I feel like giving people all of your thought process and experience is the best way to be understood long term.

Even experts in this field disagree with each other on BASIC principles of management. How is someone that is just starting out in their management career supposed to learn if they are given watered down basic guidelines and are told there are no exceptions?

Deer management is a Jenga TOWER of Exceptions!

The most common goal, the trophy buck, is one of them!!
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:46 PM   #81
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See this is the antithesis of my thought process.

Deer management is a Jenga TOWER of Exceptions!
This x1000!!!


There is no 100% given with every buck. Not every old deer will have a sway back. Or a belly. Or big antlers. Or sagging skin. Or a big neck. Or act dominant. Or have tarsal staining. Some may express these traits. Some may never show any of this. Some may only show one, or two traits. Nothing is set in stone with deer. Always exceptions. Lots of exceptions to the "rules". Then you get into other aspects of management with ratios, numbers, feed consumption rates, and on and on and on. Every property is different. And there is no cookie-cutter blanket management plan that fits all of them. But it's really not too difficult to examine each individual property and come up with a good plan.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:13 PM   #82
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You go on and on about your mission but you have some very flawed thoughts on population management for any size ranch. Biggest majority of Texas is over the basic carrying capacity number for their area and you are recommending not taking less desire able bucks out of the herd as a population reduction technique.

If you want to be the knight in shining armor at least do some prep and homework before shouting bad info from the rooftops.
I'm really enjoying this, honest, and I sincerely hope no one is offended by my exaggerated analogies, sarcasm, and flamboyant language solely targeted at making a point. Especially you TKK, I greatly enjoyed what you shared, your deer are unbefreakinlievable!

Txwhitetail, you're correct, many parts of TX are over carrying capacity on deer. But you're incorrect that both doe and buck harvest are required to address it. If I had enough contiguous, open range country and enough hunters and tags, I could bring a population back under carrying capacity through years of doe harvest while only taking 10% of the bucks annually.

Maybe I need to simplify. Here's some scientific, proven facts to consider.

1. Bucks don't have babies.
2. Doe do have babies.

If you kill the ones that have babies you control population growth and habitat quality. Killing the ones that dont have babies will not control population growth and habitat quality. I don't understand what you believe to be flawed about that?

Since a hypothetical model didn't drive home the concept, let's talk real life. There are large LF ranches, which shall remain nameless and location-less, where buck harvest is 10% (less on a few), doe harvest varies between 10-28% (depending on fawn crop and ranch), habitats are in excellent shape with abundant high quality browse, none feed protein at appreciable amounts (i.e. 3 feeders on 22,000 ac), all of them kill only mature bucks (minus a mistake or 2) with no culling criteria, sex ratios stay around 1:1, the populations are stable and kept well below carrying capacity. Oh, and I almost forgot, they kill huge deer every year and have for the last decade.
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Old 08-18-2017, 12:04 AM   #83
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Good lord!!
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Old 08-18-2017, 12:06 AM   #84
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This x1000!!!


There is no 100% given with every buck. Not every old deer will have a sway back. Or a belly. Or big antlers. Or sagging skin. Or a big neck. Or act dominant. Or have tarsal staining. Some may express these traits. Some may never show any of this. Some may only show one, or two traits. Nothing is set in stone with deer. Always exceptions. Lots of exceptions to the "rules". Then you get into other aspects of management with ratios, numbers, feed consumption rates, and on and on and on. Every property is different. And there is no cookie-cutter blanket management plan that fits all of them. But it's really not too difficult to examine each individual property and come up with a good plan.
Chance, well worded!
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Old 08-18-2017, 12:19 AM   #85
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It's not a obsession where I come from, It's a necessity......

And I'll shoot every 3.5 year old, no brow tine buck, that the law allows Everytime... I've wittnessed that disease spread first hand...
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:00 AM   #86
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Good lord!!
HA! That's the funny.
But the horse keeps sticking his head up saying, "Thank you sir! May I have another!"
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:31 AM   #87
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HA! That's the funny.
But the horse keeps sticking his head up saying, "Thank you sir! May I have another!"
Maybe he is asking for a different stick rather than getting hit with the exact same one over and over and over and over and over and over.....
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:45 AM   #88
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The problem with culling is everyone defines it differently and every situation is unique. One location's or hunter's cull is another's trophy. That's like talking politics, no one will ever agree and there isnt a perfect solution that applies to every situation.

In regards to genetics, yes removing/encouraging certain genetic traits over time will lead to change. Look at the history of evolution and how genetic traits in different animals/birds lead to adapting to new habitats when certain traits help in success/death. If you shoot every 10 point on a place at 3-4 years old, and let every 6-8 pt walk and die of old age, you are helping to remove a genetic strain (10 points) from your deer pool. Think about it the opposite way, why do people introduce genetics to a deer heard, to raise the average antler size. Why do ranchers have breeder deer, cattle, sheep, etc? Why do people pay so much money for dog breeding pedigrees, horse/bull semen, etc etc? In order to pass on the best possible genetics to their heard. Same thing happens in reverse if you remove all the "good" deer from your area and leave only the bad.

All that being said, the best way to see the maximum potential of a deer heard is get age and nutrition. Its hard on a small low fence to see all the results, but its worth a shot if you can play the long game.
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:50 AM   #89
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I agree. If your goal is 10 bucks a years, its pretty easy to back into how many does you need to shoot every year. All you need is enough does to produce buck fawns - mortality. If you shoot bucks at 6, you should have (simply) ~5 times as many bucks as does, not counting buck fawns. Otherwise youre feeding too many extra mouths.

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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
I'm really enjoying this, honest, and I sincerely hope no one is offended by my exaggerated analogies, sarcasm, and flamboyant language solely targeted at making a point. Especially you TKK, I greatly enjoyed what you shared, your deer are unbefreakinlievable!

Txwhitetail, you're correct, many parts of TX are over carrying capacity on deer. But you're incorrect that both doe and buck harvest are required to address it. If I had enough contiguous, open range country and enough hunters and tags, I could bring a population back under carrying capacity through years of doe harvest while only taking 10% of the bucks annually.

Maybe I need to simplify. Here's some scientific, proven facts to consider.

1. Bucks don't have babies.
2. Doe do have babies.

If you kill the ones that have babies you control population growth and habitat quality. Killing the ones that dont have babies will not control population growth and habitat quality. I don't understand what you believe to be flawed about that?

Since a hypothetical model didn't drive home the concept, let's talk real life. There are large LF ranches, which shall remain nameless and location-less, where buck harvest is 10% (less on a few), doe harvest varies between 10-28% (depending on fawn crop and ranch), habitats are in excellent shape with abundant high quality browse, none feed protein at appreciable amounts (i.e. 3 feeders on 22,000 ac), all of them kill only mature bucks (minus a mistake or 2) with no culling criteria, sex ratios stay around 1:1, the populations are stable and kept well below carrying capacity. Oh, and I almost forgot, they kill huge deer every year and have for the last decade.
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:20 AM   #90
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Maybe he is asking for a different stick rather than getting hit with the exact same one over and over and over and over and over and over.....
You are correct, the point has been the same every time, but I've presented it in multiple fashions as each response was met to the contrary. First, I just made the statement. Then offered supporting reasoning. Then offered mathematical model. Then offered a graphic. Then discussed situational application and intent. Then resorted to sarcasm. Then presented it at Jr High level. Then gave real life examples.

I've used a heck of a lot of different sticks, just all from the same tree.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:11 PM   #91
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You are correct, the point has been the same every time, but I've presented it in multiple fashions as each response was met to the contrary. First, I just made the statement. Then offered supporting reasoning. Then offered mathematical model. Then offered a graphic. Then discussed situational application and intent. Then resorted to sarcasm. Then presented it at Jr High level. Then gave real life examples.

I've used a heck of a lot of different sticks, just all from the same tree.
I don't think your tree forks that many times

Ok you win, I'm done, you beat me into submission with your one sided tree, OUT!
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:46 PM   #92
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I made Top Of Texas a chart using his data so maybe he will understand.

Chart shows if you have 2 bucks on your place they eat 3280 lbs of forage per year, 1 buck eats 1640 lbs, and no bucks eat 0 lbs of forage per year.

Conclusion is for every buck you shoot you save 1640 lbs of forage for other game to eat.

Hope this helps!




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Old 08-18-2017, 02:23 PM   #93
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I don't get it??

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Originally Posted by txwhitetail View Post
I made Top Of Texas a chart using his data so maybe he will understand.

Chart shows if you have 2 bucks on your place they eat 3280 lbs of forage per year, 1 buck eats 1640 lbs, and no bucks eat 0 lbs of forage per year.

Conclusion is for every buck you shoot you save 1640 lbs of forage for other game to eat.

Hope this helps!




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Old 08-18-2017, 03:35 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by txwhitetail View Post
I made Top Of Texas a chart using his data so maybe he will understand.

Chart shows if you have 2 bucks on your place they eat 3280 lbs of forage per year, 1 buck eats 1640 lbs, and no bucks eat 0 lbs of forage per year.

Conclusion is for every buck you shoot you save 1640 lbs of forage for other game to eat.

Hope this helps!




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. that's low, but funny!
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Old 08-18-2017, 03:48 PM   #95
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You are correct, the point has been the same every time, but I've presented it in multiple fashions as each response was met to the contrary. First, I just made the statement. Then offered supporting reasoning. Then offered mathematical model. Then offered a graphic. Then discussed situational application and intent. Then resorted to sarcasm. Then presented it at Jr High level. Then gave real life examples.

I've used a heck of a lot of different sticks, just all from the same tree.
Here is the difference - if you do not cull I do not care. If I DO cull, why do you care?
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Old 08-20-2017, 11:21 AM   #96
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Science based facts vs Opinions....

I'll take the Pepsi challenge against anyone that heavily culls any day of the week. lol


MSU Deer University Culling Part 1

MSU Deer University Culling Part 2

Last edited by FCTrapper; 08-20-2017 at 11:25 AM..
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:14 PM   #97
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Looks like they are calling it "managing the standing crop of bucks"
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:05 PM   #98
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Here is the difference - if you do not cull I do not care. If I DO cull, why do you care?
I personally don't care if ppl cull, unless it has a direct effect on me. Most ppl's buck herd will fall along the normal distribution curve in terms of quality. 68% being average. Your does will fall along that same distribution. Culling, for the most part, simply tries to highlight the top tier portion of that distribution. Odds are, they'll breed average does....and the cycle continues.
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:28 PM   #99
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Science based facts vs Opinions....

I'll take the Pepsi challenge against anyone that heavily culls any day of the week. lol


MSU Deer University Culling Part 1

MSU Deer University Culling Part 2
Thanks for the drive time listen.
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:55 PM   #100
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Science based facts vs Opinions....

I'll take the Pepsi challenge against anyone that heavily culls any day of the week. lol


MSU Deer University Culling Part 1

MSU Deer University Culling Part 2
I will take your study and raise you a recent study supporting culling - by David Hewett, A&M, and the Comanche Ranch over a ten year period. Couple this with the fact that we have culled heavily for years with outstanding results on a LF ranch. Think we will keep at it.

Go to the bottom of the article and read "the latest"


:http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/de...-culling-bucks
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