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Old 11-27-2017, 01:02 PM   #1
LFD2037
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Angry What Happened To My Scope?

I have a Remmy 700 w/a Burris XTR II 4-20x50 mounted w/ Talley Tactical 34mm rings & 20moa rail. I haven't handled the gun in about 2 months. Last night I pulled it out of the safe & **** scope was in an odd location. When I tilted the gun the scope slid thru the rings! The scope is sliding thru the rings like they were never tightened. I torqued them to Burris' specs (I believe 22 in/lb) w/a Wheeler Fat Wrench. What could have happened?
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:06 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFD2037 View Post
I have a Remmy 700 w/a Burris XTR II 4-20x50 mounted w/ Talley Tactical 34mm rings & 20moa rail. I haven't handled the gun in about 2 months. Last night I pulled it out of the safe & **** scope was in an odd location. When I tilted the gun the scope slid thru the rings! The scope is sliding thru the rings like they were never tightened. I torqued them to Burris' specs (I believe 22 in/lb) w/a Wheeler Fat Wrench. What could have happened?
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:19 PM   #3
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Default What Happened To My Scope?

Iím not familiar with that scope but are you sure it has a 34mm main tube?

EDIT: Nvm, it does. Just looked it up.


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Old 11-27-2017, 01:25 PM   #4
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Are they still torqued to spec? If so, miss sized rings or bad tube. QC problems rare on those two.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:29 PM   #5
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Did you lap the rings before the install? The only time I have had a scope slip was also on a set of rings that I didn't lap. Needless to say I lap all my rings now.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:36 PM   #6
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Did you torque, let loose then retorque? That initial stress on the metal will sometimes cause it to stretch a little.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
Iím not familiar with that scope but are you sure it has a 34mm main tube?

EDIT: Nvm, it does. Just looked it up.


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Definitely 34mm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianL View Post
Are they still torqued to spec? If so, miss sized rings or bad tube. QC problems rare on those two.
I haven't checked that yet but will ASAP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierracharlie338 View Post
Did you lap the rings before the install? The only time I have had a scope slip was also on a set of rings that I didn't lap. Needless to say I lap all my rings now.
I did not lap them as Talley voids the warranty if lapped & they guarantee no lapping is needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outbreaker View Post
Did you torque, let loose then retorque? That initial stress on the metal will sometimes cause it to stretch a little.
The rings are mega thick & the scope is built like a tank. I can't possibly see either of them being altered w/22 in/lbs. of torque.


I sent an email to Talley & they said "I don't know what happened. We'll send you a new set w/a return label". Killer CS but I need to know why this happened as I don't want it to ever happen again!
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:59 PM   #8
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Talley wants them back to do an assessment. I just checked & w/the torque wrench set on ~22 in/lbs. the screws tightened easily. The only thing I can fathom happened is the screws stretched???
Weird deal & curious as to what Talley comes up with. They're shipping me a new set today w/a return label. Their CS appears to be top notch!
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:59 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by LFD2037 View Post
Definitely 34mm.

I haven't checked that yet but will ASAP.

I did not lap them as Talley voids the warranty if lapped & they guarantee no lapping is needed.

The rings are mega thick & the scope is built like a tank. I can't possibly see either of them being altered w/22 in/lbs. of torque.


I sent an email to Talley & they said "I don't know what happened. We'll send you a new set w/a return label". Killer CS but I need to know why this happened as I don't want it to ever happen again!
It is the bolts that stretch not the rings.
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:00 PM   #10
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IDK why this site rotates photos! You can see where the scope slid down while in the safe then where it slid back when I tilted the gun looking at what the heck had gone wrong.Name:  IMG_0106.jpg
Views: 2074
Size:  42.4 KB
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outbreaker View Post
It is the bolts that stretch not the rings.
Thanks. That's the only reason I can see for this happening. I've mounted 15+ scopes using the same procedure. I'm very **** mounting my scopes & this is a first for me!
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:16 PM   #12
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Do you make sure to set your torque wrench to 0 every time you’re done? If not, you could get a false reading
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:24 PM   #13
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Had you shot this gun with that setup?

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Old 11-27-2017, 02:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
Do you make sure to set your torque wrench to 0 every time you’re done? If not, you could get a false reading
EVERY time! I'm OCD w/tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianL View Post
Had you shot this gun with that setup?


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About 150 rounds.
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:36 PM   #15
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My WAG is wrench didn't torque to spec that it was showing, and screws backed out.

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Old 11-27-2017, 02:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFD2037 View Post
IDK why this site rotates photos! You can see where the scope slid down while in the safe then where it slid back when I tilted the gun looking at what the heck had gone wrong.Attachment 884976
You sure as hell had them clamped down hard. Those are some serious ring marks.
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:51 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
You sure as hell had them clamped down hard. Those are some serious ring marks.
It's not ring "marks". It's just the tan paint that came off. If it was black rings it wouldn't look like that & if it did then that'd be a serious over-tightening!

You can see how easily the tan paint comes off by looking @ the slides marks. If I tilt the gun, the scope slides by itself & leaves those marks.
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFD2037 View Post
Talley wants them back to do an assessment. I just checked & w/the torque wrench set on ~22 in/lbs. the screws tightened easily. The only thing I can fathom happened is the screws stretched???
Weird deal & curious as to what Talley comes up with. They're shipping me a new set today w/a return label. Their CS appears to be top notch!


I lap ALL rings. I have used/installed many Talley rings and to say they donít need lapping is laughable. I actually really like their product but find they perform much better after lapping. I understand not wanting to void a warranty but Iíd rather have them set and not move than play the game you are, hoping they take care of you. Also blue loctite (non permanent) all of my screws.

Is that a factory coating? If not that is probably part of the problem and they should definitely be lapped if that coating is on the inside of the rings if nothing more than to remove that coating.


Sierracharlie outÖ
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:59 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by sierracharlie338 View Post
I lap ALL rings. I have used/installed many Talley rings and to say they donít need lapping is laughable. I actually really like their product but find they perform much better after lapping. I understand not wanting to void a warranty but Iíd rather have them set and not move than play the game you are, hoping they take care of you. Also blue loctite (non permanent) all of my screws.

Is that a factory coating? If not that is probably part of the problem and they should definitely be lapped if that coating is on the inside of the rings if nothing more than to remove that coating.


Sierracharlie outÖ
It is a factory coating from Talley. I used blue loctite on all screws/bolts.
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Old 11-27-2017, 03:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFD2037 View Post
It is a factory coating from Talley. I used blue loctite on all screws/bolts.


Idk man thatís weird


Sierracharlie outÖ
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Old 11-27-2017, 03:17 PM   #21
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The only scope i've ever had jump on rings was a Burris...returned it for Vortex. no issues - same rings.
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Old 11-27-2017, 03:48 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by LFD2037 View Post
Talley voids the warranty if lapped
That's actually not legal but plenty of people get away with it.

Also, the Talley rings I've lapped have needed it. It's not just about the rings themselves but also the mounting on the actual gun that affects the need for lapping. You'd think a company like Talley would have that knowledge.

Odd problem... my guess is an out-of-spec tube from Burris. You have a caliper you can put to it?
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:44 PM   #23
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I do have a caliper.
If the tube was jacked up wouldn't it have become obvious before now? The scope was tight for ~150 rounds and now it's like it was never tightened.
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:50 PM   #24
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Just an outside the box thought.

If the diameter of the Scope tube was able to contract slightly because it broke it's seal and lost its nitrogen charge... maybe?
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Old 11-27-2017, 05:33 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Gunnyart View Post
Just an outside the box thought.

If the diameter of the Scope tube was able to contract slightly because it broke it's seal and lost its nitrogen charge... maybe?
Hmmmm. Interesting thought!
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Old 11-27-2017, 05:57 PM   #26
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IDK why this site rotates photos!
I believe it depends on the orientation of your camera (phone) when the picture is taken.
If your phone is vertical, then it will turn the picture when you post it.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:14 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Brute Killer View Post
I believe it depends on the orientation of your camera (phone) when the picture is taken.
If your phone is vertical, then it will turn the picture when you post it.
You'd think so but I had my phone upright/vertical when I took the pic.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:34 PM   #28
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Yeah, that's what I said.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:04 PM   #29
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If that is the coating on the rings on the scope like you say, then I would guess the coating is coming off and made the ID slightly larger. I am not sure how thick cerakote or whatever they used is.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:30 PM   #30
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Those cerakoted rings are the problem, if not done correctly they will slip.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:50 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Maxlab View Post
Those cerakoted rings are the problem, if not done correctly they will slip.
I'd think Talley would be using a correct procedure. I could see it causing the scope to slip but how would it cause the rings to loosen? The scope slides thru the rings w/next to zero effort like they were never tightened, even though I've transported it to the range 5+ time & shot ~150 rounds thru it and it never moved.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:11 PM   #32
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When I was shooting rimfire benchrest a bunch, I was told to never use the Wheeler FAT as it was not reliable---
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by dustoffer View Post
When I was shooting rimfire benchrest a bunch, I was told to never use the Wheeler FAT as it was not reliable---
I researched my tail off when looking for a torque wrench for this type stuff. Everything I read was it was the best bang for my buck. Tons & tons of positive reviews (rated a 4.7 from 1,300+ people on Amazon alone). It'd suck if it's the wrench!

I put the gun in the safe after the range. When I put it in the safe, the scope was tight (shooting sub MOA @ 200yds) & 2 months later I pull it out and the rings are so loose that the scope slipped all the way down, by the force of it's weight alone, & will slide all the way forward/backwards just by tilting the gun.

Nobody has the combo to my safe & I KNOW nobody has touched the gun.
How would the screws loosen up THIS much while sitting still in the safe?

Last edited by LFD2037; 11-27-2017 at 09:28 PM..
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:27 PM   #34
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I vote haunted safe.

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Old 11-27-2017, 10:30 PM   #35
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I vote haunted safe.

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A this point, me too!!!
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:40 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxlab View Post
Those cerakoted rings are the problem, if not done correctly they will slip.


This is my thought
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
That's actually not legal but plenty of people get away with it.



Also, the Talley rings I've lapped have needed it. It's not just about the rings themselves but also the mounting on the actual gun that affects the need for lapping. You'd think a company like Talley would have that knowledge.



Odd problem... my guess is an out-of-spec tube from Burris. You have a caliper you can put to it?


I was mounting a scope in Talley rings this evening and thought of this thread. These pic were taken after the bases were torqued down and a light lapping, the small shiny areas would have been my only contact area had I not finished lapping to 80-90% clean up.




They absolutely need to be lapped after install.
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:35 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by bboswell View Post
I was mounting a scope in Talley rings this evening and thought of this thread. These pic were taken after the bases were torqued down and a light lapping, the small shiny areas would have been my only contact area had I not finished lapping to 80-90% clean up.




They absolutely need to be lapped after install.
Are these the Tactical billet aluminum rings cut from solid stock?
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:03 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFD2037 View Post
Are these the Tactical billet aluminum rings cut from solid stock?


Tally light weight alloy 20 MOA mounts
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:46 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by bboswell View Post
Tally light weight alloy 20 MOA mounts
The ones I have are cut from a solid piece of aluminum. Still think lapping is required? These rings are almost $200 so I'd like to think they wouldn't need lapping. From Talley:
"Heavy-duty scope rings are precision-machined from solid billet aluminum with dual recoil lugs to ensure your tactical scope wonít budge under the heaviest recoil. Full-width ring caps are cut from the same billet as the bottom half of the ring for precise fit and held in place with four stainless steel Allen head screws that wonít work loose when properly tightened. Matching serial numbers ensure you always mate the cap with the bottom it came with. Locking bar, heavy-duty crossbolt and oversized, Ĺ" hex nut locks the ring to any MIL-STD 1913 Picatinny rail."
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:00 AM   #41
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I am in the camp of the coating causing the problem.
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:41 AM   #42
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Y’all that think it’s coating, how could it happen “all of the sudden” and to the extent described?
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Old 11-28-2017, 09:31 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFD2037 View Post
The ones I have are cut from a solid piece of aluminum. Still think lapping is required? These rings are almost $200 so I'd like to think they wouldn't need lapping.
They absolutely need lapping.
You can spend $3k on a scope and it still needs to be sighted in.
Lapping adjusts the as installed rings for perfect contact and tension. Your $200 rings cannot account for a slight (few thou) misalignment of the mounting, even if due to nothing more than manufacturing tolerance.
Single piece rings also need to be lapped, since the rings are not going to pull the tapped holes in the receiver into perfect alignment.
In the rare case that everything as installed aligns perfectly and lapping actually is not needed, you canít make this determination ahead of timeó lapping is the only thing that will show you itís not needed and it canít hurt anything. The way you would know this is that the finish on the rings as they are lapped would wear away perfectly evenly across the entire inner face of the rings... something Iíve never seen happen.
Lapping is appropriate for any ring-mounted scope on any rifle installation without exception.
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:06 AM   #44
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Default What Happened To My Scope?

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Originally Posted by LFD2037 View Post
The ones I have are cut from a solid piece of aluminum. Still think lapping is required? These rings are almost $200 so I'd like to think they wouldn't need lapping. From Talley:

"Heavy-duty scope rings are precision-machined from solid billet aluminum with dual recoil lugs to ensure your tactical scope wonít budge under the heaviest recoil. Full-width ring caps are cut from the same billet as the bottom half of the ring for precise fit and held in place with four stainless steel Allen head screws that wonít work loose when properly tightened. Matching serial numbers ensure you always mate the cap with the bottom it came with. Locking bar, heavy-duty crossbolt and oversized, Ĺ" hex nut locks the ring to any MIL-STD 1913 Picatinny rail."


That is a marketing statement not actual fact. Just like rifle barrels, the first one cut is usually much tighter to spec than the last before changing tooling. Maybe yours was at the end of a tooling set. EVERY set of Talleys I have done looks like the one in the picture the other fellow posted, at best 20% contact. Clearly any explanation, other than a haunted safe, you disagree with so most of us that are trying to help are at a loss.

Good luck with your issue. I hope you get it worked out and back to shooting soon.


Sierracharlie outÖ
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Old 11-28-2017, 11:05 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnyart View Post
Yíall that think itís coating, how could it happen ďall of the suddenĒ and to the extent described?
I have seen this happen once before, we were shooting a benchrest match and one guy was in the lead, he had actually just shot a clean relay. As he stood up to brag a little and stand his gun up in the rack his scope slid all the way down in his rings. I would have to guess that the last time you set the gun down the slight jar made the scope slide down.
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Old 11-28-2017, 11:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Gunnyart View Post
Yíall that think itís coating, how could it happen ďall of the suddenĒ and to the extent described?
If the coating isn't exactly the same thickness throughout the entire surface on the inside surface of the rings you torque the rings down on the high spots not the whole surface as intended. over time and being subjected to recoil and vibration of handling and hauling plus gravity pulling down on the scope at some time sitting there it gave way and slid. I may be totally off but

1 Scope moved
2 scope was torqued to spec
3 have coating residue on scope
4 now can torque rings down on scope but until cleaned out have coating residue that needs to be cleaned out or torqueing on moving matter.
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:12 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sierracharlie338 View Post
That is a marketing statement not actual fact. Just like rifle barrels, the first one cut is usually much tighter to spec than the last before changing tooling. Maybe yours was at the end of a tooling set. EVERY set of Talleys I have done looks like the one in the picture the other fellow posted, at best 20% contact. Clearly any explanation, other than a haunted safe, you disagree with so most of us that are trying to help are at a loss.

Good luck with your issue. I hope you get it worked out and back to shooting soon.


Sierracharlie out…
I get what you're saying, & I am appreciative of the input, but I'm not lapping a set of $200 rings when the manufacturer says it deosn't need to be done AND they'll void the warranty if I do.
Having said that, I'm thinking the coating is the culprit (which would be fixed if lapped but again, read above). I've never owned coated rings & I've never had this happen before so the coating is the only common denominator here.
Talley has been great & mailed out a new set yesterday (same day I contacted them). I'll contact them again prior to installing them about the coating & about lapping, especially due to the coating. I will keep this post up to date as things evolve.

***ETA***
I just emailed Talley again w/this:
"Everyone I've discussed this with has had 2 opinions:
1) the rings need to be lapped
2) the coating is the issue

I see y'all advice against lapping, & void the warranty if done, but what about the rings w/the coating? Surely it can't be applied 100% perfect thickness, or can it?

I'll get these back to y'all quickly so y'all can check on your end what possibly went on. I'm going to put my micrometer on these & check the thickness thoroughly & do the new set as well prior to installation."

I'll let y'all know what they say!

Last edited by LFD2037; 11-28-2017 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:27 PM   #48
Mike D
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Iíve never lapped a set of rings and I have several rifles that shoot 1/4-1/2Ē.


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Old 11-28-2017, 01:33 PM   #49
LFD2037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
I’ve never lapped a set of rings and I have several rifles that shoot 1/4-1/2”.


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Neither have I & they've all shot MOA @ worst, 1/2 MOA @ best. This gun shot a 1.75" group @ 200yds prior to this happening & I was still breaking it in/ finding exact ammo it liked & it was getting better each outing.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:41 PM   #50
bowpro12
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I wonder if you received mis-labeled 35mm rings

Last edited by bowpro12; 11-28-2017 at 02:04 PM..
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