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Old 09-26-2017, 07:27 PM   #1
RickBarbee
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Default Arrow Ballistics Chat

Arrow Ballistics Chart

Created using the Kinetic Energy and Momentum Calculator from
ARCHERY REPORT for the data, and Microsoft Excel for the Chart.



(1)
All of the data was created in the calculator, and based on a high efficiency 60# Recurve Bow.

(2)
Bow efficiency was calculated with 600gr / 10gpp arrow weight being the center point of the chart.
Center point indicated by the Vertical Solid Black Line at center of the chart.

(3)
Minimum arrow weight 400gr / 6.6gpp for the low weight, and 800gr / 13.34 for the high.

(4)
Calculator says - 140fps for the lowest arrow speed, and 220fps for the highest arrow speed.

(5)
The Arrow Kinetic Energy does not start to drop off until between the 9.5 & 10 gpp area,
and then only slightly to the end.

(6)
The Arrow Momentum has some slight change, but it is so fractional, that it basically remains flat lined.
This is due to the drastic reduction in arrow speed as the arrow weight is increased.

(7)
The efficiency of the bow, whether increasing/decreasing, will change the numbers from high/low,
but the incremental changes in the chart stay the same, and the sweet spot stays in the same arrow gpp window.


The Vertical Black Dotted Line is the point at 9.5 gpp. This is the area I have always found to produce the best
penetration, and overall (combined) performance on my hunting rigs, and the chart shows me exactly why that is.

My conclusion of this is - There are only two ways to increase output/delivered energy of your rig.
(1)
By increasing bow draw weight, and/or bow efficiency.
(2)
By increasing arrow weight, but this option forces you to increase the bow draw weight/bow efficiency
proportionally the same, or it's all a wash at best, or you lose energy at worse.

I'm just throwing this out there as food for thought.
You can draw your own conclusions.

Rick
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:32 PM   #2
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I have a couple of guys using my data to make a better looking chart.
Can't wait to see the results.

Rick
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:35 PM   #3
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That was my first time to use Excel, and to create a spread sheet.

Getting all the data together, and creating the sheet wasn't a big deal, but I just could not figure out how to make it look all fancy.

Rick
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:11 PM   #4
Draco
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Don't we do this for the simplicity of it? That's too complicated Rick.
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:18 PM   #5
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Dan Worden image from my data.
Looks much better than mine.



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Old 09-26-2017, 10:35 PM   #6
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Here's Matt's Chart.

Another real nice one.

Rick
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:40 PM   #7
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How am I supposed to memorize all of that before season opens?
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TP3 View Post
How am I supposed to memorize all of that before season opens?
The only thing you have to memorize is - according the the very accurate data of the ballistics calculator, the very best arrow weight is between 9 & 10 grains per pound of bow draw weight.

Rick
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:37 PM   #9
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Whew. I was wondering how I missed all that in physics class. Honestly I wish I were tough enough to shoot more weight but 50lbs is about all I'm going to be able to master I think. I may never shoot a Cape Buff with it but a few whitetail and pigs will do fine for me.
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Old 09-27-2017, 06:36 AM   #10
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I appreciate the effort that has gone into all charts and data unfortunately my brain only understands
nock
Draw
Release
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:08 AM   #11
Dry Bones
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^ LOL Perfect.
Some are more numerical minded and read things like charts and graphs and store them easily. Others read it in linear evaluations.
I like the graph, and in the case of my new bow I know I would get even better performance if I was to back off the arrow weight a little, but then I would need to get a new set of arrows in weaker spine so that my reduction in tip weight would still shoot as desired.
Rick, I really like data like this, but answer a question for me. I have an arrow that weighs 465 grains and one that weighs 525 grains. They both are shot from a 43# bow, the same 20 yard mark using the same gap. The lighter arrow hits approximately an inch above the heavier one. Which one is carrying more proposed kinetic energy? (I did this yesterday several times to get a solid feel for the different arrows)
Obvious statement- 525 grains from 43# bow = 12.2 GPP
465 grain arrow from 43# bow = 10.8 GPP
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:31 AM   #12
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Which one penetrates the target better?
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:44 AM   #13
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DRT, that's the odd part. I have no real feel if either give me consistently more. Obviously heavily shot targets have some hollow or weaker locations, and I have not been able to get a solid measure on which one gets in more. I feel like it may be the heavier arrow, but ...?
From my 51# longbow the heavier arrow does get more penetration, but it's 51# which is what that arrow was tuned for. Not certain about the recurve yet.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:40 PM   #14
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I know I'm shooting into a new Rinehart target and I'm getting about 3 inches of penetration at 20 yards.

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Old 09-27-2017, 02:07 PM   #15
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A better way to represent the data would have been to use normalized percentages so you get a better idea for the gains/losses. The first graph I saw I chuckled because it minimalized the momentum because the scale of the Y-axis was so thrown off. The second graph is better, but it is still meaningless unless you understand the impact of what a 25% increase in momentum means... at that momentum. BTW, what was your X-axis in the new chart... it is hard to tell what units 0-160 would reperesent?

Your conclusion is only partially correct. The best way to get more energy out is to increase the draw weight (because you are putting more energy in.) However, you can find the spot where you maximize the energy out (KE of the arrow.) Clearly to maximize energy out, you would use a (eyeballing) 8gpp arrow as that is where the maximum KE occurs. But... that is if you care about energy... and not momentum.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:36 PM   #16
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I've never put my bow on a scale to get a measurement at my DL. The bow is 53@28 and I'm at 26.75 DL. If my actual DW is 50 I'm shooting 8.76gpp. The new arrows I've bought but not set up yet will be right at 9.4gpp.

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Old 09-27-2017, 07:34 PM   #17
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Is this one of those deals where your trying to say pie are square instead of round???
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:40 PM   #18
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I like pie. Round or square.

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Old 09-27-2017, 10:22 PM   #19
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I like this one. Just finished it up.

All the same data, but has the left line tails anchored together.

Gives a whole different perspective.
The momentum folks should really like this one.



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Old 09-27-2017, 10:49 PM   #20
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And it shows that your highest momentum is with the heaviest arrows, even though they are traveling at a slower speed, and at a much lower KE!!!! I'm no engineer, but from what I've read, momentum is more important than KE. I know for a fact that my heavier arrows that I shoot now penetrate better on critters than the lighter ones I used to shoot. Both were tuned using the same method, and to the same end. This has been proven to me by seeing the increase of complete passthrus on game animals I have shot.

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Old 09-27-2017, 11:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisch View Post
And it shows that your highest momentum is with the heaviest arrows, even though they are traveling at a slower speed, and at a much lower KE!!!! I'm no engineer, but from what I've read, momentum is more important than KE. I know for a fact that my heavier arrows that I shoot now penetrate better on critters than the lighter ones I used to shoot. Both were tuned using the same method, and to the same end. This has been proven to me by seeing the increase of complete passthrus on game animals I have shot.

Bisch
Oh, I agree. I'm not apposed to momentum at all, but there's more to it than just that. I like to be at the point where all factors are gelling, and for me it has always been between 9 & 10 grains per pound with 9.5 being the target/goal.
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:31 PM   #22
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Here's where 9.5gpp puts me on the graph.

Rick
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Old 09-28-2017, 08:20 AM   #23
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Cool Rick. Some next level archery. Super sexy spreadsheet ninjitsu for a first timer to excel.

Itd be interesting to see what change there is in momentum or kinetic energy of your arrow, if any, if the only variable is FOC....all else same.

I see KE as knock down power. I see momentum as punch through power. KE doesnt hold much water in my novice archery eyes.

Last edited by Briar Friar; 09-28-2017 at 08:25 AM.. Reason: NinjaRickSpake
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Old 09-28-2017, 08:36 AM   #24
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Yeah I don't agree. I think a balance between speed and weight is needed. You can have so much momentum your arrow blows through and sticks 4 inches in the dirt and it does you no more cutting of flesh than if the arrow just barely fell on the ground on the other side of the animal. My compound arrows are much lighter than my traditional arrows. Much faster. And blow through deer and pigs. Shooting from a ground blind it's often difficult to find an arrow because it skips off the ground on the other side and flies another 30 yards. I'm looking for the right balance of speed and penetration. Range adjustment is less a factor with a faster arrow.


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Last edited by DRT; 09-28-2017 at 08:38 AM..
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:45 AM   #25
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Just FYI

My scaling in the last chart I posted was WAY off, so disregard it.

When I have time, I will post a new graph with the scaling corrected.

Rick
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Old 09-28-2017, 12:27 PM   #26
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Well, if you really want to get all fancy... take the derivative of your KE and M charts and see where they intersect.

BTW, you never said... what is the variable of the x axis?
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:24 PM   #27
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This is my final version.

The numbers & scaling data are all correct in this one.



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