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Old 09-06-2010, 05:09 PM   #1
RickBarbee
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Default "Traditional State Of Mind"

Now days we read, and hear a lot of questions, and statements concerning our weapons, and other tools of choice in archery, and bow hunting. Questions about our hunting styles, and practices. Questions about whether we qualify, or not to call ourselves "Traditional". It is mind boggling that many of these questions would even be of concern to us as archers/bow hunters, yet we seem bombarded with them on a daily basis, and some of the answers given borderline on complete (for lack of a better description) insanity.

I've thought about this for a while now, and decided I would set down, take as many of those questions as I could remember, and answer them in complete honesty as they apply to me.

As always in discussions of this type there will be those who agree, those who disagree, and those who will get totally bent out of shape over my views. My intentions are not to point fingers, or step on toes. These are simply a portrayal of my views, my thinking, my "Traditional State Of Mind", so if you get upset with me you need to know going in, that I won't lose any sleep over it.

What is "Traditional Archery"?

I used to think I didn't like the word "Traditional" as it applies to my sport of archery, and my joy in bow hunting, but lately I have come to grips with it, and find myself at peace with the description.

When shooting with any variation of a finger hold on the string, traditional archery encompasses many types of bows - Longbows, Recurve Bows, the Hybrid mix of the two afore mentioned, Flat Bows, Primitive Self Bows, Horse Bows, etc, etc, etc. There are many makes, models, and variations of each, but they all have three things in common.

(A) - They are all simply a bow with a string on them with no added mechanics to aid in drawing, and holding draw. I'll refer to them as "The Stick and String" from this point on.

(B) - They all have basic characteristics, and requirements of arrow selection, and tuning to achieve good arrow flight.

(C) - They all require considerable dedication to learning how to shoot them accurately, and proficiently.


Over many years I've owned, and have extensively shot all of the above mentioned except the horse bow, and can tell you from my experience, that with exception to performance variations they all shoot pretty much the same, with the only real differences coming in the tuning specifications, but then in retrospect you can have two bows of identical proportions in appearance, draw weights, and lengths, etc, etc, and they may (very likely will) have some differences in how they tune for optimal performance, especially when passed from one shooters hand to another. The bottom line is, you need a good working knowledge of how the bow works, and know how to recognize it's quirks to be able to set it up, and shoot it with any proficiency, and that includes those who choose to shoot them with sights, stabilizers, and elevated rests. Anyone who thinks using sights is a piece of cake needs to give it a serious try out. Without good form (dare I say great form) sights will do you no real good.

Although I love all forms of "The Stick and String" my preference is the recurve, non sighted, and shot from the shelf where applicable.

Foot note about arrows: It makes no difference what material they are, what type of fletching you use, or how pretty they are. Arrows is arrows is arrows, and all that matters is that you know how to build them to function their best.

So here goes - Who do I consider "Traditional Archers"?

Answer:

Regardless of your level of ability, and given my above interpretations of views - If you are one who dedicates him/herself to the learning of how to shoot "The Stick and String" in any one, or all of it's many variations, and you have the ability to keep an open mind to the reality that the learning never stops, and one style does not fit, or compliment all, then, and only then are you considered by me to be a "Traditional Archer".

Kindest Regards

Rick Barbee
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Old 09-06-2010, 05:15 PM   #2
Cottonwood
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Amen brother Rick
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Old 09-06-2010, 05:54 PM   #3
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Amen
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:01 PM   #4
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Good write up.
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:01 PM   #5
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I like that Rick! I have been shooting for quite a while now, put a lot of effort into being as proficient as I can, and am still learning as I go. I hope I can do this my entire lifetime.

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Old 09-06-2010, 06:18 PM   #6
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!!!!
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:33 PM   #7
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Rick,

As always you come forward and voice not only your opinion but, the opinions that so many of us share but, are unable to put to pen!

I have been a longbow shooter - not a traditional, stick and string or anything other than this for well over 30 years. I shoot my preferred weapon (of choice - my personal choice no others) and use the best arrow materials I can find for me!!! My broadheads are my choice as well as not choosing to use camo, as my normal hunting attire!

I feel that you and so many others are now experiencing the same feelings for our sport as I am at the present.

I love shooting a longbow and watching my arrows sometimes hitting my mark and when I miss I still feel good cause I am in full charge of what happens..no one or nothing else controls the outcome.

The traditional archer is also one who strives to base action and word on values that they themselves deem worthy of their talents and chosen weaponry!
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol Man View Post
The traditional archer is also one who strives to base action and word on values that they themselves deem worthy of their talents and chosen weaponry!
Thanks folks.

Doug, I was going to say something similar to what you said here, but I didn't want to lay it on to thick all at once. You are dead on in how I feel about it. Thank you so much for your input Brother.

I strive to shoot straight, with both my arrows, and my life.
The two are intertwined, and I notice when I struggle with one, I am so often struggling with the other.

When I apply what little discipline I have learned in my Traditional Archery to the toils of my everyday life, I find I am better at both, and a much happier, and content person.

Rick
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:59 PM   #9
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good read, I would love to hear a little bit more about the differences between recurve and longbow. I have only shot a recurve but am considering trying out a longbow.
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Old 09-06-2010, 08:03 PM   #10
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I used to hate the title (Traditional Bowhunter)
So many of the folks I knew that wrapped themselves in that name were embarrassing. They would stand around the range before a 3-D shoot beating their chest and making fun of the compound guys. Then go out and shoot a 160 score. I have never been into the history part of the whole deal. I just love shooting critters with my recurve or longbow. I have never cried after killing a deer or burned grass in its mouth. I'm not fascinated by Indians. 80% of the ones I know shoot their deer out of a truck window at night. I don't feel like hunting with Trad gear makes me special, it is just what trips my trigger. Most everyone I hunt with is shooting a compound or a rifle and their deer seem to be just as tasty as mine.
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Old 09-06-2010, 08:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff View Post
I used to hate the title (Traditional Bowhunter)
So many of the folks I knew that wrapped themselves in that name were embarrassing. They would stand around the range before a 3-D shoot beating their chest and making fun of the compound guys. Then go out and shoot a 160 score. I have never been into the history part of the whole deal. I just love shooting critters with my recurve or longbow. I have never cried after killing a deer or burned grass in its mouth. I'm not fascinated by Indians. 80% of the ones I know shoot their deer out of a truck window at night. I don't feel like hunting with Trad gear makes me special, it is just what trips my trigger. Most everyone I hunt with is shooting a compound or a rifle and their deer seem to be just as tasty as mine.
DITTO!

Enough with the labeling.

GILBERT
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:07 PM   #12
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I shoot my recurves 80% of the time, yes I still have a wheelie bow. But shooting my compound is like shooting a rifle to me it's a mechanical procedure and just never has felt "natural" to me. I love shooting my stick bows instinctively and watching the arrow hit exactly what I'm focusing on, its awesome. So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't consider myself a Traditional Bowhunter, I'm just a bow hunter plain and simple.
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:53 PM   #13
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Marty, I agree with you. I believe in hunting, and promoting interest in hunting regardless of the choice of tools we use, but in this instance we aren't talking about hunting in general. We are talking archery, and bowhunting specifically.

I've never thought myself as better, nor worse for my choice of bowhunting equipment, and like I said in the original post - at first, and for a long time, I didn't like the title/label.

Like it or not we have been labeled with the Trad title, and it is here to stay.

Labels on such a large scale as this are something once handed down, that the recipients can do any one of four things with:

1 - you can deny, and complain about it, thus making it look bad to others regardless of whether it is or not, which leads to disrespect, and disinterest.

2 - You can stick your chest out, beat on it, and spew a lot of hot air claiming you're the best because of it, which again only makes it look bad to others regardless of whether it is or not, which also leads to disrespect, and disinterest.

3 - you can hide from, and ignore it, but the end result will usually wind up as #1 & #2

or

4 - You can stand up, wear the title with pride, and try your dangdest to set an example of the title that is becoming of you, and your genre, which will lead to it being respected, and interesting to others as long as you show the others that same respect, and interest.

Which would you prefer?
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:12 PM   #14
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I. Spend a good deal of time promting bowhunting
if the trad part gets some exposure out of it as well that's just a bonus
stand around and bash a compound guy, and I will walk away
the only heartburn I had with the xbows is that I think it will make it alot less likely that teenagers will take up bowhunting
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff View Post
I. Spend a good deal of time promting bowhunting
if the trad part gets some exposure out of it as well that's just a bonus
stand around and bash a compound guy, and I will walk away
the only heartburn I had with the xbows is that I think it will make it alot less likely that teenagers will take up bowhunting
Right there with ya - Again.

Well except the Xbow thing, and while agree with the statement you made about it, I feel it runs much deeper than just that. Water under the bridge though, and I doubt any discussion about it will change, or reverse the outcome.
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:40 PM   #16
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I like things simple. I like things that are hard and challenging. I enjoy the method as much as the outcome.

I agree with what several have said above, just because I choose to challenge myself, does not make be better or give me the right to look down upon others. Traditional should not mean elitist.

I do have some affection for the history and romance of it all, but I am not obsessed with it. I do like that most guys shooting our kinds of bows are laid back with little drama. I think we have more pure fun. I respect most of the traditional archers/bowhunters I know...even the ones I disagee with often.

I like that at a 3-D event, the guy(s) that beat me, did it because they are better than I am, and not because they have better equipment.

MJ
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:47 PM   #17
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Rick, that was an epiphany of thought brought to life on the keyboard, this has got to be one of the best explanations i have ever heard. Way to go Brother!
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:20 PM   #18
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i honestly believe that certain (modern or otherwise) crossbows can still be considered "traditional equipment" look back at history, the cross bow has been as much a part of it as the long bow. the sights and cocking aids are honestly the same as using a wheelbow, sights and release. i feel a recurve style crossbow w/ no sights and cocked w/o an aid would be the same as shooting a modern recurve w/ carbon arrows....

ok now that my whole crossbow spill is out of the way. the reason i went to traditional was because i was stacking arrows within a month of learning to shoot a bow, to me that isnt a proper challenge. so i bought a selfbow and started shooting it. one thing ive noticed is that the compound and trad guys kinda keep to themselves. i completely disagree with this. that would be like me pulling up to a store during a long ride on my harley, see a guy on a jap bike (any brand) and me walking into the store w/o conversing w/ the person... and ive had people who have thought that not only about me, but about people who ride harley's in general... yes there are the people out there that feel that they are better than everyone else because they ride a harley (or shoot purely traditional) and laugh at the guy on the kawasaki across the parking lot... its not about riding the best, or shooting a stick or wheel bow. its about the fact that we all love doing the same thing, the equipment we have is simply the means of doing the thing we love, archery..
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:49 AM   #19
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I have not been a member of this forum very long. I am just glad I joined and have the opportunity to read such post. It is a learnig experience not only trying to figure out the stick, but realizing that it goes well beyond releaseing the arrow to the intended target.

Thanks fot the insights!
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:33 AM   #20
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I have shot Traditional and 3D for the last 12 years and have never heard someone bash a person for shooting a compound bow or a traditional shooter implay he or she is better than any other archer because they shoot traditional equipment. We shoot traditional because it is fun. All the other is hogwash. I have however heard a traditional bowhunter bash indians.
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Old 09-08-2010, 08:57 AM   #21
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Well played Rick, well played!
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Old 09-08-2010, 11:46 AM   #22
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amen
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Old 09-09-2010, 03:03 PM   #23
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This is a good thread. I have been shooting traditional equiptment since the late 80's. I can remember the time I was sitting in a pig stand with a compound on one side and a Palmer recurve on the other side. Talk about being on the fence. I love to hunt with a longbow mostly but I like recurve shooting also. I still occasionaly hunt with a pistol or an open sight lever action rifle. Hunting is hunting and no one should berate anyone else for his choice of weapon. We are all in the same boat and have the same obstacles to overcome with the anti hunters. We all should band together to retain our rights to hunt. I will never dis someone for their choice. I remember one night at the Archer Country weekly trad league a compound shooter ( a friend of mine, no names) came up to me and said "So, I see you proximety shooters are about to start playing.) I guess I puffed a little bit and asked him how many white wrapped packages of game meat he had in his freezer. He kinda smiled shyly and said "Probably not as many as you" and walked off.
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Old 09-09-2010, 04:32 PM   #24
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Thanks for the kind words folks. I really appreciate it.

My intent with this thread was to not only post my views/opinions of certain topics that concern us, but to get YOU to post yours as well.

I would like to see this thread continue to grow, not only with comments on other's posts, but with your individual thoughts as well.

All we need do is keep it civil.

There have been two or three remarks which mentioned the crossbow. Well it isn't really a subject for a Traditional Archery forum, but it is, and has been on most all of our minds for a long time now.
Since the subject came up, I figure now is as good a time, and here is as good a place to give my thoughts on the subject as any.

I'll give my thoughts in complete honesty, and keep in mind - I think if you read what I have to say closely, you will realize I mean no disrespect to anyone.

````````````````````````````````````````````````

The Great Crossbow Debate

I will start this off by saying - I'm a shooter. I enjoy shooting all types of weapons ranging from bean shooters to .50 caliber high power rifles, and just about everything in between.
I have the utmost respect for anyone who dedicates themselves to learning proficiency in the use of their weapon of choice regardless of the type, but especially when that use is to be going into the field to hunt, and take game. Yes even the crossbow. They are a fine weapon, and a lot of fun to shoot.

While I give regard to the crossbow in the above paragraph I must admit I am adamantly apposed to it's use for hunting during what is recognized as an archery only bow hunting season, with exception only being for qualifying physical challenges.

Why some ask. Well the answer is simple. Crossbows are not archery. They never have been, and never will be.

Some say "why worry about it" they have no real advantage over using a compound bow. To those folks I say "you better start doing some research", because you are dead wrong about that.
I might feel close to the same myself (notice I said close) if crossbows were really the limited weapons of old that we picture in our mind when we think of them, but they are not.

Technology has taken the crossbow in stellar leaps, and bounds into being a weapon that is not only deadly accurate even to the most novice of user, but it has turned it into a deadly accurate "long range" weapon as well, and again this holds true even in the hands of the most novice of users.

My feelings (opinions) are, that allowing their use during our archery only bow hunting season is a kick in the face, and insult to those before us who worked so hard to achieve our archery only hunting seasons for us. Not only that, but considering the technological advances I mentioned in the above paragraph it makes it the same as trying to bow hunt in the same area as gun hunters, and under certain sets of circumstances we all know how dangerous that can be, especially when hunting public property where we have no idea who might be there with us. Heck we might as well all just start wearing the blaze orange all the time when we hunt.

Like I said in the begging - Crossbows are a fine weapon (especially the newer ones). I have nothing against them, or those who use them, but they don't belong in our archery only hunting seasons any more than a 30MM canon belongs in the rifle seasons. I suggest they be placed in the Muzzle Loader seasons, because their range and accuracy has reached comparable measures, and have possibly even surpassed the measures of the older style pre inline black powder rifles.

Rick
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Old 09-09-2010, 04:47 PM   #25
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Rick, I can not agree more about crossbows that are in reality a cocked and locked shoulder firing device with a scope on it. The new Tac15 by PSE brought this thing into a whole new relm of the subject with 1/4" accuracy at 100 yards with a bolt that is traveling 440 fps.

I make no bones about keeping them where they belong, and that is during the general hunting season, and keep them out of archery only season.

Just my .02 cents on it.
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Old 09-09-2010, 06:37 PM   #26
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Good points on the crossbow issue. Never really thought about that. Interesting how the new crossbow technology has vastly improved that weapon's accuracy, range and effectiveness. I've never shot one, though, but I remember reading about them being used by the French in the Hundred Years War during the Medieval period.

Anyway, I'm a beginner to both archery and "traditional archery." I bought a used compound bow at around the same time I got my longbow earlier this year, and I hardly ever shoot it anymore, so I gave it to my brother-in-law. I have nothing against compounds or compound shooters, I just personally like the simplicity and looks of longbows and recurves. I'm a terrible shot with it, though, and was a much better shot with the compound, but I don't care. I'm hoping to improve with practice, and if I can get half as good as some of y'all on here I'd be very happy with that accomplishment. To me it's the challenge of not only trying something new, but trying a recreational activity that takes time and patience to slowly improve. And even though my shooting skills are bad, I still have a blast shooting! For me, it's a great stress reliever from the pressures of work, and if anything, it's the challenge of trying to improve and hopefully master it in some way. I may not like all challenges life throws at me, but trying this is one challenge I've chosen to undertake that I really like.

Another thing I like about "traditional archery" is that the few times I've been to local 3-d shoots, I see much older competitors out shooting every one. I'm in my mid-40's and with my latest injuries I'm realizing I can't do the physical impact sports I was once able to do in my youth. To see more mature folks with such skill gives me hope that in time I can continue enjoying a sport that's not as likely to leave me with physical injuries as basketball, running, etc.

Another thing about "traditional archery" is the whole "getting-back-to-basics" concept. Archery and bowhunting is about the outdoors and nature. Getting away from the office, blackberries, e-mails, etc. and getting back to basics by going into the great outdoors provides me with much needed relief and relaxation. And rather than dealing with complex compounds, cables, cams, etc., using a single string and an elongated stick as a bow embodies a more "getting-back-to-basics" approach along those same lines, or at least for me it does.

Another thing for me is the history of bows and arrows. I've enjoy reading history, especially old battles, like the ones brought to life in Bernard Cornwell's "Agincourt" and Holy Grail series where outnumbered English longbow men helped defeat French armies with their armored knights and crossbow men. Also like to read about Native American warriors, like the Comanche who used their light cavalry skills with horse and bow to successfully raid as far south as deep Mexico with impunity, or Genghis Khan's Mongol horde and their success with horse and bow. My longbow may not be made out of the same material or designed exactly the same way as the bows used by those ancient warriors, but the fact that it's still the same basic design of stick and string and that it requires similar skill to mastered by those from the days of old has always been kind of neat for me.

As for the label of "traditional archery," I suppose I'm too new at it at this point to comment about the choice of words to describe it. To me, though, having some defining phrase helps focus my search for more information about it much easier. That is, if I do a google search or peruse the library or bookstore, most stuff about archery or bowhunting in general will generate much more compound-related results. By using a defining phrase, I was not only able to find the "Traditional" folder of this forum, but I've also been able to find other forums, like Tradtalk, tradgang, etc., and other sources, like the Traditional Bowyer's Bible. I suppose one could re-label it to something like "Barebow archery", much like how it's labeled in the DVD series, "Masters of the Barebow," but then those who shoot traditional with sights and stabilizers, may not agree with that label since I guess it could unintentionally exclude them. To me it doesn't matter as long as it's easy to distinguish between the types of archery for content purposes.
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Old 09-09-2010, 11:57 PM   #27
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I Am young and new to bow hunting. i soot a Recurve for the simple reason of it feels right. i have shot compound and long bow and it just didn't feel natural to me, but when i picked up my recurve from the first shot it felt right like a n extinction of my own arm. as for the title of a trad shooter i have no problem. the only problem i have is when is with a local pro shop that i went in to to ask a little about tuning arrows and was totally pushed away and insulted because i was shooting a recuve and not a wheel bow. i am new to the more advanced parts of shooting such needed a little advice. to finish thing of i will say if not for texasbowhunter.com and the trad forum i probably would have given up trad archery or even archery all together.

thank you to all of those on this site for answering the questions that i have had.

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Old 09-10-2010, 01:17 PM   #28
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To me Traditional is the way things use to be done. It is the history of a thing or a person. It is back to the way it all started I am proud to be a Traditional Archer. To take my stick and string out into the feild and shoot 3D or hunt means something to me. I am able to reach back into time in my on mind and maybe touch a piece of history.
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Old 09-12-2010, 01:14 PM   #29
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My thought on "Proficienct Testing"

Click HERE
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:04 PM   #30
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Rick, as i reponded to you on this SO CALLED PROFICIENCY TESTING on another forum this morning. Be Careful, very careful my friend. Proficiency testing has already been tried many , many years ago. All it accomplished was to keep many trad shooters from qualifying to hunt, and allowing many of the early compound bow shooters to hunt where trad shooters could not. The test, easy as it was of an archer having to shoot 6 arrows into a 10" pie plate at 20 yards stiil, kept many trad shooters from qualifying. As i mentioned, a big cry of FOUL!,,,RIGHTLY SO! due to compound bow shooters easily qualifying to hunt and trad shooter not, it was eventually done away with. THANK GOD!

As i said before, IF SUCH A LAW WAS TO BE ENACTED all it will accomplish is to give compound bow shooters proof that they are more proficient than us. If a law is enacted, the numbers will not lie. The number will probably show that 99% of the compound bow shooter qualified, and our trad numbers will be dismal. They are many self proclaim experts that hide and build themselves up as such on many different forums, when in actuallity are not.. They will hurt the trad ranks when it comes to qualifying.

As it happened many years ago, we lost many tradtional shooters that swallowed hard after seeing that they could no longer hunt the areas they liked so much, jumped fence and picked up a compound bow. We lost many trad shooter then due to the so called proficiency test....because they failed to qualify with their trad bow. Granted there were many that qualified then and many that can qualify now.

Please Rick, this is not a Post that needs to be posted. All we need is to give the compound bow shooters that out number us by HUGE numbers an idea to petition for such a law again. That will hurt us more than anybody can imagine. Been there, done that, and we were worried then. Compound bow shooters are what really keeps the archery industry alive, and they can, given ideas hurt us.

Everytime we talk about the crossbow shooters, and how accurate they are, and how far they can shoot, pretty much the same for compound bow shooters, all we are doing is agreeing with them that they are more proficient than we are. Like i said awhile ago, why do we want to hurt ourselves by in essence telling peoople that they ARE more accurate and can shoot accurately with less practice..... more proficient than we are. Those are the facts wheather we like them or not.

Getting people to agree with our posts, and develope a little following will help alot "ONLY" if it is sound and serves the Trad Ranks as a whole, and not the indiviual posting the thread for whatever reasons he might deem good.

IMO this proficieny testing? will not serve the Traditional Ranks in any way.

Lets be careful of what we say...it could come back and bite us in the rear.

GILBERT
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:07 PM   #31
RickBarbee
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Gilbert - I so wish you could watch the video. I think you agree with the points I make.
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:31 PM   #32
GILBERT
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I am not on dial up...so i do not know why it will not come up for me. The same thing happened on the other forum...it would not come up for me.

Rick, i am basing my comments on you saying "YEP! that is what i was meaning on proficiency testing" on the other forum, when i said that i was not able to see the vidio, and my comments would be based on what happened many years ago, and if it was not , disregard my comments. You said that it was what your meant.

Your friend no matter what.

GILBERT
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:36 PM   #33
RickBarbee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GILBERT View Post
I am not on dial up...so i do not know why it will not come up for me. The same thing happened on the other forum...it would not come up for me.

Rick, i am basing my comments on you saying "YEP! that is what i was meaning on proficiency testing" on the other forum, when i said that i was not able to see the vidio, and my comments would be based on what happened many years ago, and if it was not , disregard my comments. You said that it was what your meant.

Your friend no matter what.

GILBERT
Ditto Brother

I'm thinking you have a popup blocker that is keeping the video from loading.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:01 PM   #34
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It wouldn't load for me either.
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Old 09-13-2010, 07:52 PM   #35
DaltonLegacy
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i use firefox and was able to watch it just had to DL the plug-in for windows media play
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:08 PM   #36
RickBarbee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonLegacy View Post
i use firefox and was able to watch it just had to DL the plug-in for windows media play
Yep, it is in Windows Media format a .wma, and you have to have the windows media player plug in for your browser.
That plug in should be standard in Internet Explorer, but you have to install it for Firefox, and some others.
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