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Old 11-14-2017, 09:06 AM   #1
Leftridge
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Default REMCO, Mike and Navy Seals

Man, I donít usually get too twisted off about things but there were some comments made in a thread about the strangled SF guy and two Seals might have done it that just sat hard in my stomach.

My quick caveat is I donít claim to be in any way best friends with any Navy Seals and in fact have never meet one to my knowledge until this past weekend.

I received an invitation from a guy I know who asked if I wanted to come hang out with a few guys at his ranch where I shoot a lot of pictures.

The VERY short story is I shared a campfire with 3 game wardens, a Dallas Swat cop, and 5 Navy Seals.

I canít begin to tell you what that experience is like, and I canít tell you what it was like to hear some of the things I over heard. Nothing like top secret, just like first hand accounts of the BIGGEST things ever to happen that are public knowledge. Mostly like a surreal or out of body experience.

And here is what I would have to say about things. When you stand in judgement and declare they should be hanged and get the death penalty thatís a fools remark.

What I would say is in ways most, including myself, you canít understand the depths of which these men have been broken by the things they have seen and done on behalf of a grateful nation.

What I would say is these men have given themselves without reservation to the service of this nation and the sacrifice they made physically and mentally can not be understood or understated.

What I would say is the ones being accused of the SF Rangers death should be held accountable for it. But there also needs to be some context to understand what these guys have been through before you just scream put them to death. Iím not making excuses and donít say they donít deserve to be punished for their crimes. Iím just saying there are at least considerations to be thought about.

I saw men that hurt. I saw amazing men, humble men, and even one that I thought no way this guy is who he is, but I saw hurting men.

I also saw a society where NFL players take retirement and get a couple hundred thousand bucks a year for life when they are done, but we take the ones who sacrificed most for us and sent them back to the ďreal worldĒ with a $40,000/yr retirement and some crappy VA benefits and say sorry you are shot to hell and all broken, go find a job.

Itís a real eye opening thing. Iíve been around a lot of war vets and wounded war vets, but Iíve never been around THIS.

Iím just saying, a little critical thinking is needed before the judgement.

Lastly, I would share this. I heard this story first hand and feel lead to share it wherever I have a forum to do so.

https://youtu.be/7p4QX2YTqFk


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Old 11-14-2017, 09:21 AM   #2
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Well said Jamie

That was tough to watch and only aggravates me more about the whole Bergdahl case.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:05 AM   #3
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Man, I donít usually get too twisted off about things but there were some comments made in a thread about the strangled SF guy and two Seals might have done it that just sat hard in my stomach.

My quick caveat is I donít claim to be in any way best friends with any Navy Seals and in fact have never meet one to my knowledge until this past weekend.

I received an invitation from a guy I know who asked if I wanted to come hang out with a few guys at his ranch where I shoot a lot of pictures.

The VERY short story is I shared a campfire with 3 game wardens, a Dallas Swat cop, and 5 Navy Seals.

I canít begin to tell you what that experience is like, and I canít tell you what it was like to hear some of the things I over heard. Nothing like top secret, just like first hand accounts of the BIGGEST things ever to happen that are public knowledge. Mostly like a surreal or out of body experience.

And here is what I would have to say about things. When you stand in judgement and declare they should be hanged and get the death penalty thatís a fools remark.

What I would say is in ways most, including myself, you canít understand the depths of which these men have been broken by the things they have seen and done on behalf of a grateful nation.

What I would say is these men have given themselves without reservation to the service of this nation and the sacrifice they made physically and mentally can not be understood or understated.

What I would say is the ones being accused of the SF Rangers death should be held accountable for it. But there also needs to be some context to understand what these guys have been through before you just scream put them to death. Iím not making excuses and donít say they donít deserve to be punished for their crimes. Iím just saying there are at least considerations to be thought about.

I saw men that hurt. I saw amazing men, humble men, and even one that I thought no way this guy is who he is, but I saw hurting men.

I also saw a society where NFL players take retirement and get a couple hundred thousand bucks a year for life when they are done, but we take the ones who sacrificed most for us and sent them back to the ďreal worldĒ with a $40,000/yr retirement and some crappy VA benefits and say sorry you are shot to hell and all broken, go find a job.

Itís a real eye opening thing. Iíve been around a lot of war vets and wounded war vets, but Iíve never been around THIS.

Iím just saying, a little critical thinking is needed before the judgement.

Lastly, I would share this. I heard this story first hand and feel lead to share it wherever I have a forum to do so.

https://youtu.be/7p4QX2YTqFk


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I believe you are probably referring to my comment in that thread. I agree with you whole heartedly about these guys, what they go through and what they do for our country. i have the utmost respect for them. I said, "IF this turns out to be true". Meaning IF it turns out they killed this guy to keep him quiet about the money they were stealing, they should face the death penalty, or, at least the equivalent of what a civilian would face for murder in these circumstances. No one should get a free pass. They have already been caught lying about what happened and it isn't looking good for them.

Yes, the majority of them are fantastic people and a cut above the rest of society. But they, just like any other walk of life, have their $#%birds. Fact of the matter is, the dead guy has sacrificed, gone through and seen things as well and now his wife, kids, country etc. have been robbed of him.

We will see what unfolds. If this turns out to be foul play, I hope they get the book thrown at them. If deemed to be an honest accident, I hope there is no charge and they continue doing what they do.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:31 AM   #4
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Life is all about choices, and if they were insane or acting in self defense, it will come out one way or another.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:35 AM   #5
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I believe you are probably referring to my comment in that thread. I agree with you whole heartedly about these guys, what they go through and what they do for our country. i have the utmost respect for them. I said, "IF this turns out to be true". Meaning IF it turns out they killed this guy to keep him quiet about the money they were stealing, they should face the death penalty, or, at least the equivalent of what a civilian would face for murder in these circumstances. No one should get a free pass. They have already been caught lying about what happened and it isn't looking good for them.



Yes, the majority of them are fantastic people and a cut above the rest of society. But they, just like any other walk of life, have their $#%birds. Fact of the matter is, the dead guy has sacrificed, gone through and seen things as well and now his wife, kids, country etc. have been robbed of him.



We will see what unfolds. If this turns out to be foul play, I hope they get the book thrown at them. If deemed to be an honest accident, I hope there is no charge and they continue doing what they do.


Iím not sure whoís thread it was honestly, but probably what youíre talking about.

Iím not butting heads with you and youíre entitled to your opinion for sure, Iím just saying we donít put to death mental health patients in the United States.

And I differ in the aspect of I donít think these guys are just average Joeís. I do agree that his family needs justice and he was taken as well and they should pay for that if it turns out that they did it. I just donít think they should pay with their life.


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Old 11-14-2017, 10:40 AM   #6
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Iím not sure whoís thread it was honestly, but probably what youíre talking about.

Iím not butting heads with you and youíre entitled to your opinion for sure, Iím just saying we donít put to death mental health patients in the United States.

And I differ in the aspect of I donít think these guys are just average Joeís. I do agree that his family needs justice and he was taken as well and they should pay for that if it turns out that they did it. I just donít think they should pay with their life.


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just to be clear if it turns out that this was premeditated murder to cover up their own criminal activity you think the death penalty should be off the table because of prior service and sacrifice?
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:47 AM   #7
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just to be clear if it turns out that this was premeditated murder to cover up their own criminal activity you think the death penalty should be off the table because of prior service and sacrifice?


Because of mental health issues related to what they specifically do, uhhh yeah..


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Old 11-14-2017, 10:53 AM   #8
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Because of mental health issues related to what they specifically do, uhhh yeah..


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so they are too mentally unhealthy to be prosecuted normally but were mentally healthy enough to allegedly murder a fellow service member to cover up the criminal activity they were making money off of when he found them out? I don't think that defense is gonna fly
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:57 AM   #9
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Because of mental health issues related to what they specifically do, uhhh yeah..


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Have the accused been diagnosed or put forward a defense claiming mental health issues?
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:13 AM   #10
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Because of mental health issues related to what they specifically do, uhhh yeah..


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So it's ok for a military person to be committing crimes and covering tracks by murdering witnesses?

Allegedly of course
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:13 AM   #11
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so they are too mentally unhealthy to be prosecuted normally but were mentally healthy enough to allegedly murder a fellow service member to cover up the criminal activity they were making money off of when he found them out? I don't think that defense is gonna fly


Thatís what mental health problems are right, Messed up thought processes. Doesnít mean youíre stupid and doesnít mean that you donít have the ability to have critical thinking or think about what youíre doing. Again Iím not saying they donít need to be punished and that the family doesnít need to have justice. Iím saying that when you spend time with men llike these you understand from a different perspective that these guys have issues, and those issues have to be considered. And to do anything short of that is naÔve. in no way however do I insinuate the justice doesnít need to be done, I just donít believe in the death penalty under this circumstance.

But Iím also not stupid enough to know that if that was my child that got killed by them I might very well fill 1000% different.


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Old 11-14-2017, 11:15 AM   #12
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Have the accused been diagnosed or put forward a defense claiming mental health issues?


Not to my knowledge, and I doubt they would.


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Old 11-14-2017, 11:22 AM   #13
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Not to my knowledge, and I doubt they would.


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Why wouldn't they in a premediated capital murder type case, if they truly had mental issues?
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:28 AM   #14
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Why wouldn't they in a premediated capital murder type case, if they truly had mental issues?


Because beyond PTSD I donít think that mental health cases are very good defense. I think thereís difficulty in proof that somebody is mental processes are not normal. But I donít really have mental health experience, beyond the required classes, I just believe that it exists and that I saw glimpse of something that I had never seen this past weekend.


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Old 11-14-2017, 12:32 PM   #15
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IF it turns out they killed this guy to keep him quiet about the money they were stealing, they should face the death penalty, or, at least the equivalent of what a civilian would face for murder in these circumstances. No one should get a free pass. None of the seals I have known would disagree with this. I have known several Navy seals, through my connections with the Navy. Our attorney with the contracting office I worked in was an ex-Navy Seal and was still active in the reserves. I have done 2 drop camps in Alaska with a Navy seal and have shot archery league with others
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:35 PM   #16
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Are you implying simply because they have been in combat they have mental health issues? Not all of us end up with PTSD because of of our experiences over there, maybe I’m missing the point you’re trying to make. Murder is murder in my book.
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Old 11-14-2017, 12:50 PM   #17
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Are you implying simply because they have been in combat they have mental health issues? Not all of us end up with PTSD because of of our experiences over there, maybe Iím missing the point youíre trying to make. Murder is murder in my book.


Nope.. But I am implying that I have considered the possibility that what Seals specifically do can jack up their thinking after doing it for a long time. And I suspect few Seals are normal after service. And that itís not a far reach that some of them crack. And that it should be considered in punishment and that I would oppose the death penalty because of it.

My dad is a combat vet, my grandad was a combat vet. They didnít do the things seals do day in and day out. It doesnít make anyone serve less than anyone elseís, I guess I have just found an empathy that most people donít get, and possibly others that didnít do that specific job donít get.

Murder is murder.. No doubt.

My original statement was before stringing the guys up it saying they should die if found guilty stop and think about what they have done for this country. If someone comes to the same conclusion so be it.

Maybe itís just something you had to sit through hearing to understand my perspective on it.

And itís ok for everyone to have their point of view. Iím not offended by it like others seem to be of mine. I certainly donít claim to speak for the guys I sat with and this issue wasnít discussed.




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Old 11-14-2017, 01:19 PM   #18
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Nope.. But I am implying that I have considered the possibility that what Seals specifically do can jack up their thinking after doing it for a long time. And I suspect few Seals are normal after service. And that itís not a far reach that some of them crack. And that it should be considered in punishment and that I would oppose the death penalty because of it.

My dad is a combat vet, my grandad was a combat vet. They didnít do the things seals do day in and day out. It doesnít make anyone serve less than anyone elseís, I guess I have just found an empathy that most people donít get, and possibly others that didnít do that specific job donít get.

Murder is murder.. No doubt.

My original statement was before stringing the guys up it saying they should die if found guilty stop and think about what they have done for this country. If someone comes to the same conclusion so be it.

Maybe itís just something you had to sit through hearing to understand my perspective on it.

And itís ok for everyone to have their point of view. Iím not offended by it like others seem to be of mine. I certainly donít claim to speak for the guys I sat with and this issue wasnít discussed.



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What about what the guy they killed did for this country?
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:21 PM   #19
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What about what the guy they killed did for this country?


Iíve addressed that about 5 times already.. There is no defense of their actions if it is found they did it, which seems likely.


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Old 11-14-2017, 01:46 PM   #20
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What I would say is the ones being accused of the SF Rangers death should be held accountable for it. But there also needs to be some context to understand what these guys have been through before you just scream put them to death. I’m not making excuses and don’t say they don’t deserve to be punished for their crimes. I’m just saying there are at least considerations to be thought about.
I know that you're pumped up because you share a fire with some military guys and got to hear some stories but you're overthinking this by leaps and bounds.

Do you know if the two Navy Seals had PTSD? I didn't read that anywhere about them but it could help with their defense if they killed the Green Beret to cover up their stealing money.

Respect and honor your Veterans. They not only deserve that respect but most have earned it as well.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:54 PM   #21
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I know that you're pumped up because you share a fire with some military guys and got to hear some stories but you're overthinking this by leaps and bounds.

Do you know if the two Navy Seals had PTSD? I didn't read that anywhere about them but it could help with their defense if they killed the Green Beret to cover up their stealing money.

Respect and honor your Veterans. They not only deserve that respect but most have earned it as well.
Ya, maybe so.. You could be right.

Or maybe its just easier to not have critical thinking skills about topics like this.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:02 PM   #22
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Sad story for sure. I think there is always a natural tendency to elevate certain people in the military, police, etc. In many ways you have to hold them to a higher standard than the average population (not a lesser standard). I tend to believe that anyone that murders is not mentally healthy. I'm not in favor of the death penalty as a whole but at least there are circumstances that judges/jurors take into account in murder cases and I'm certain they will do that here as well.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:46 PM   #23
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Because of mental health issues related to what they specifically do, uhhh yeah..


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Not to be rude, but your thinking is way off base.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:53 PM   #24
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Not to be rude, but your thinking is way off base.
Because my opinion is a debatable point? That brought a lot to the discussion, not to be rude.

I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right.. I just have some thoughts about it and that's why I posted.

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Old 11-14-2017, 03:01 PM   #25
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One of my best buddies, a recently retired USMC Gunny SGT, put it best...."The military is a microcosm of society. If 10% of society is ****birds, you can bet that 10% of the military is as well."

Nobody should get a free pass from breaking the law for self gain. Now, if they had to break the law to further the mission they were tasked with, I can forgive that, but not for self gain.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:08 PM   #26
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One of my best buddies, a recently retired USMC Gunny SGT, put it best...."The military is a microcosm of society. If 10% of society is ****birds, you can bet that 10% of the military is as well."

Nobody should get a free pass from breaking the law for self gain. Now, if they had to break the law to further the mission they were tasked with, I can forgive that, but not for self gain.


Bingo. I remember when the SEAL who claimed to have killed OBL and wrote the book about it got arrested for a DWI and people here were willing to give him a pass. Some stated he should be able to do what he wanted. All fine and dandy until your the one who's family gets hit and killed by him, or strangled to death for trying to do the right thing.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:41 PM   #27
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I am not being argumentative, just sharing a different point of view.

I can say, with a very high degree of confidence, that the men you shared that fire with would see those two lined up against a wall and shot were it decided that they murdered another operator to cover up their own embezzling scheme. (Granted, a Staff Sgt. in the Green Berets is not in the same league as a DEVGRU or Delta operator, but he is an operator in the same sport.)

The continued success of the Special Operations community is wholly predicated on the certain knowledge that the guys on your left and right will, without hesitation, sacrifice their own lives for yours (and the mission, of course). The idea that one would murder another for personal profit is so repugnant to the community that any notion of leniency would be dismissed out of hand.

Selection for operators at the level of DEVGRU (from among the ranks of the other SEAL teams) is specifically for mental and emotional toughness. There are untold thousands of Servicemen who are physically capable of doing what DEVGRU and Delta do. The mental toughness is what sets them apart. Assignment to DEVGRU indicates a well above-average capacity to weather very violent and intimate combat actions with minimal (relatively) degradation to oneís psyche.

Thatís not to say that it has no effect, but theyíre selected for their perceived capacity to do the job and still be themselves. It serves no interests to spend years (and millions of dollars) to train a man to a certain level of competence, to see him irreparably broken on his first deployment.

If these men killed the Staff Sgt. to cover up their embezzling scheme, they likely did so with full mental clarity and malice aforethought. They earned a needle.

If it was an accident, so be it. Theyíll have to live with that.

The things that caused your heartstrings to bend for these two are the same ones that will preclude any notion of mercy among their former peers (if the speculation turns out to be true).

Just something to ruminate on...

Of course, if you are opposed to the death penalty in general, I just wasted 2 minutes of both our lives.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am pro-capital punishment and believe that it is, currently, woefully underutilized.



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Old 11-14-2017, 07:57 PM   #28
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I am not being argumentative, just sharing a different point of view.

I can say, with a very high degree of confidence, that the men you shared that fire with would see those two lined up against a wall and shot were it decided that they murdered another operator to cover up their own embezzling scheme. (Granted, a Staff Sgt. in the Green Berets is not in the same league as a DEVGRU or Delta operator, but he is an operator in the same sport.)

The continued success of the Special Operations community is wholly predicated on the certain knowledge that the guys on your left and right will, without hesitation, sacrifice their own lives for yours (and the mission, of course). The idea that one would murder another for personal profit is so repugnant to the community that any notion of leniency would be dismissed out of hand.

Selection for operators at the level of DEVGRU (from among the ranks of the other SEAL teams) is specifically for mental and emotional toughness. There are untold thousands of Servicemen who are physically capable of doing what DEVGRU and Delta do. The mental toughness is what sets them apart. Assignment to DEVGRU indicates a well above-average capacity to weather very violent and intimate combat actions with minimal (relatively) degradation to oneís psyche.

Thatís not to say that it has no effect, but theyíre selected for their perceived capacity to do the job and still be themselves. It serves no interests to spend years (and millions of dollars) to train a man to a certain level of competence, to see him irreparably broken on his first deployment.

If these men killed the Staff Sgt. to cover up their embezzling scheme, they likely did so with full mental clarity and malice aforethought. They earned a needle.

If it was an accident, so be it. Theyíll have to live with that.

The things that caused your heartstrings to bend for these two are the same ones that will preclude any notion of mercy among their former peers (if the speculation turns out to be true).

Just something to ruminate on...

Of course, if you are opposed to the death penalty in general, I just wasted 2 minutes of both our lives.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am pro-capital punishment and believe that it is, currently, woefully underutilized.



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That was the most well thought out response and I appreciate you taking the time to write it. It is certainly something for me to chew on and I appreciate that.

Oh, Iím all for capital punishment.. lol.. And the death penalty. But I do think that some thought process has to occur that DEVGRU is creating and turning out some devastated broken guys and how canít they be.

Over utilized special operators going year after year after year. More than any guy was designed to. I think that leads to some of the stories we now see.

So maybe itís all on them and personally responsibility. But seems to me we might be creating it. If there is any merit to that then I guess thatís where I come from on the death penalty on this case.

None the less, thanks for taking the team. It was appreciate by me.


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Old 11-14-2017, 08:17 PM   #29
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That was the most well thought out response and I appreciate you taking the time to write it. It is certainly something for me to chew on and I appreciate that.

Oh, Iím all for capital punishment.. lol.. And the death penalty. But I do think that some thought process has to occur that DEVGRU is creating and turning out some devastated broken guys and how canít they be.

Over utilized special operators going year after year after year. More than any guy was designed to. I think that leads to some of the stories we now see.

So maybe itís all on them and personally responsibility. But seems to me we might be creating it. If there is any merit to that then I guess thatís where I come from on the death penalty on this case.

None the less, thanks for taking the team. It was appreciate by me.


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I wholly agree with you that they are (and have been for some time now) disturbingly over utilized in the current wars out east.


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Old 11-14-2017, 08:33 PM   #30
JakeGraves
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I am not being argumentative, just sharing a different point of view.

I can say, with a very high degree of confidence, that the men you shared that fire with would see those two lined up against a wall and shot were it decided that they murdered another operator to cover up their own embezzling scheme. (Granted, a Staff Sgt. in the Green Berets is not in the same league as a DEVGRU or Delta operator, but he is an operator in the same sport.)

The continued success of the Special Operations community is wholly predicated on the certain knowledge that the guys on your left and right will, without hesitation, sacrifice their own lives for yours (and the mission, of course). The idea that one would murder another for personal profit is so repugnant to the community that any notion of leniency would be dismissed out of hand.

Selection for operators at the level of DEVGRU (from among the ranks of the other SEAL teams) is specifically for mental and emotional toughness. There are untold thousands of Servicemen who are physically capable of doing what DEVGRU and Delta do. The mental toughness is what sets them apart. Assignment to DEVGRU indicates a well above-average capacity to weather very violent and intimate combat actions with minimal (relatively) degradation to oneís psyche.

Thatís not to say that it has no effect, but theyíre selected for their perceived capacity to do the job and still be themselves. It serves no interests to spend years (and millions of dollars) to train a man to a certain level of competence, to see him irreparably broken on his first deployment.

If these men killed the Staff Sgt. to cover up their embezzling scheme, they likely did so with full mental clarity and malice aforethought. They earned a needle.

If it was an accident, so be it. Theyíll have to live with that.

The things that caused your heartstrings to bend for these two are the same ones that will preclude any notion of mercy among their former peers (if the speculation turns out to be true).

Just something to ruminate on...

Of course, if you are opposed to the death penalty in general, I just wasted 2 minutes of both our lives.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am pro-capital punishment and believe that it is, currently, woefully underutilized.



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What he said. This is a tough situation that hurts all the way around. I knew Logan before he joined and what I have read about him is very fitting to his personality when I knew him.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:59 AM   #31
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Because my opinion is a debatable point? That brought a lot to the discussion, not to be rude.

I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right.. I just have some thoughts about it and that's why I posted.
What's debatable? If what's being reported is true, they killed a fellow military member with premeditated actions. I have no idea what the military code of justice prescribes as acceptable sentencing. If its the death penalty, so be it. They will have attorney's arguing their case. If found guilty and sentenced to death, so be it. I can't fathom that they should get a pass because they are military members. If it were my son they murdered, if found to be in cold blood to cover up crimes which they benefited from, I can guarantee you that they would face the death penalty one way or the other. No I'm not a bad son of a gun, but my son's death would not go unavenged I can guarantee you. The soldier that was murdered was someone's child who as serving this country. He did not deserve to die at the hands of his fellow service members. You need to get your head checked if you can't understand this.

Last edited by rockyraider; 11-15-2017 at 01:03 AM..
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:35 AM   #32
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Thanks for posting the video, Leftridge. I get what you are saying. Almost stopped reading after 20 or so posts. Glad I made it to BPA's comment and your reply.
These guys put their pants on the same way we do. I'm not familiar enough with the case, but am familiar enough with "our system", to get what you are saying when it comes to the death penalty.
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:40 AM   #33
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What's debatable? If what's being reported is true, they killed a fellow military member with premeditated actions. I have no idea what the military code of justice prescribes as acceptable sentencing. If its the death penalty, so be it. They will have attorney's arguing their case. If found guilty and sentenced to death, so be it. I can't fathom that they should get a pass because they are military members. If it were my son they murdered, if found to be in cold blood to cover up crimes which they benefited from, I can guarantee you that they would face the death penalty one way or the other. No I'm not a bad son of a gun, but my son's death would not go unavenged I can guarantee you. The soldier that was murdered was someone's child who as serving this country. He did not deserve to die at the hands of his fellow service members. You need to get your head checked if you can't understand this.


Well you obviously didnít take the time to read anything that I wrote. Because thereís not much that you wrote that I didnít also say and agree with. Never once did I say give the guy a pass.

I feel like Iím having a conversation with my wife when I read what you wrote. You hear what you want to hear instead of what I actually said.


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Last edited by Leftridge; 11-15-2017 at 07:44 AM..
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:20 AM   #34
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Leftridge,

Another thing to consider here that I didn’t see mentioned yet is the extensive and ongoing psyc evals that these guys go through. There are constant evaluations that go on to ensure the stability of our operators that are active. Yes, many service people come out broken, especially those with extensive combat experience, but that doesn’t mean (my opinion) that they don’t know right from wrong. These men are trained extensively to make life and death decisions in a fraction of a second, and they know better than most where to draw the line. War crimes and ROE’s can get very blurry at times, but for a fellow American and Soldier, I cannot fathom ANY excuse that they should not be held fully accountable for a crime they committed if they in fact did. If it was an accident, then you can bet their careers, at least as operators, is over. In this community, you can’t afford mistakes, especially not ones that needlessly take the life of a brother when not in combat. I do understand and appreciate the concern that these men could be broken, over-utilized and hurting, but all in all, I don’t think that they should be given any slack for cold blooded murder if that is what this turns out to be. Many a good patriot has made poor decisions, and we must all be held accountable for our actions. This does in no way detract from their service to our country or their acts of valor, but none of us are above the law nor should we be. Just my .02.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:46 PM   #35
Death from Above
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What if the seals were under orders?


The is still ALOTto come
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Old Yesterday, 11:03 AM   #36
LFD2037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpa556 View Post
I am not being argumentative, just sharing a different point of view.

I can say, with a very high degree of confidence, that the men you shared that fire with would see those two lined up against a wall and shot were it decided that they murdered another operator to cover up their own embezzling scheme. (Granted, a Staff Sgt. in the Green Berets is not in the same league as a DEVGRU or Delta operator, but he is an operator in the same sport.)

The continued success of the Special Operations community is wholly predicated on the certain knowledge that the guys on your left and right will, without hesitation, sacrifice their own lives for yours (and the mission, of course). The idea that one would murder another for personal profit is so repugnant to the community that any notion of leniency would be dismissed out of hand.

Selection for operators at the level of DEVGRU (from among the ranks of the other SEAL teams) is specifically for mental and emotional toughness. There are untold thousands of Servicemen who are physically capable of doing what DEVGRU and Delta do. The mental toughness is what sets them apart. Assignment to DEVGRU indicates a well above-average capacity to weather very violent and intimate combat actions with minimal (relatively) degradation to oneís psyche.

Thatís not to say that it has no effect, but theyíre selected for their perceived capacity to do the job and still be themselves. It serves no interests to spend years (and millions of dollars) to train a man to a certain level of competence, to see him irreparably broken on his first deployment.

If these men killed the Staff Sgt. to cover up their embezzling scheme, they likely did so with full mental clarity and malice aforethought. They earned a needle.

If it was an accident, so be it. Theyíll have to live with that.

The things that caused your heartstrings to bend for these two are the same ones that will preclude any notion of mercy among their former peers (if the speculation turns out to be true).

Just something to ruminate on...

Of course, if you are opposed to the death penalty in general, I just wasted 2 minutes of both our lives.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am pro-capital punishment and believe that it is, currently, woefully underutilized.



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I've always explained DEVGRU guys like they have a switch:
in combat that switch is in "work" mode
back home that switch is in "normal" mode
MOST of them can turn that switch on & off @ will.

It appears sometimes, rarely, that switch breaks & gets stuck somewhere between work & normal. That's when reality becomes a foggy memory.

I think these 2 guys got that switch stuck when they decided to cover their butts. Some SF's guys are cocky & arrogant & carry an untouchable mentality (large majority of them are very humble & down-to-earth). This is a bad situation all the way around. I pray for the family who lost a great man & I pray for the other 2 who's lives are forever changed.
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