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Old 11-01-2017, 02:17 AM   #1
Briar Friar
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Default Does a bareshaft centripetally oscillate when shot?

The reason I ask is regard to fletching. Furthermore, is a centripetally motivated oscillating shaft enhanced or detracted by wing of the same curve?

What say yall?
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Old 11-01-2017, 02:46 AM   #2
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Depends on the angle of the dangle I suppose.
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Old 11-01-2017, 03:18 AM   #3
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Ok I'll go out on a limb here as its 0200 hrs, I've been up since 0600 hrs yesterday, and I had to use the dictionary.

So are you are asking does an unfletched arrow rotate? And does it get better or worse if you add fletching that rotates it the same direction that it naturally wants to without feathers?

I figure the arrow will rotate in one direction or another. I don't know it the rotation would be affected by the earth's rotation as water down the drain or by a person release right or left handed.

It would take a high speed camera to tell I imagine.

If it made much of a difference if any I am sure that some Olympic coach would have figured it out as they use those cameras.

You asked a question that I doubt very few have wondered about and 98% of us on here probably don't understand.
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Old 11-01-2017, 05:35 AM   #4
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Enhanced. Absolutely. Basic aerodynamic theory at work.
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Old 11-01-2017, 06:50 AM   #5
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Everyone knows the answer to that
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Old 11-01-2017, 06:59 AM   #6
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Whaaaaat?
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Old 11-01-2017, 07:00 AM   #7
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I don't even know how to pronounce centripetally.
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Old 11-01-2017, 07:29 AM   #8
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Someone learned a new word.

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Old 11-01-2017, 07:33 AM   #9
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No, the whole arrow tumbles head over heels at that point. It all depends on what phase the moon is in at the precise time you shoot.
Reason being is that the gravitational pull of the earths rotation drastically effects it. Keep this in mind- very important- if you don't set your clock back this Sunday and change your feeder times, the arrow flight won't be effected. Wait, maybe you set it forward. I'm gonna set mine sideways this year.......
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:00 AM   #10
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Can't address the OP's question but...

The twister nocks start the arrow off with a bit of spin?

Obviously you'd want the helical of the fletching to match the twist rate imparted to the bare shaft.

(Does it matter? IDK.)
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:02 AM   #11
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No. There is no significant force vector present to induce noticeable rotation. You should be able to prove this to yourself easily.

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Old 11-01-2017, 08:15 AM   #12
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An arrow may be predisposition to spin during flight from shaft asymmetry (out of round), a less than perfectly straight arrow (even carbon) or poor nock/insert alignment. Vanes, feathers, etc., stabilize the arrow and forces it to spin more consistently. I have put wraps on bareshafts to get the same weight as fletched arrows and if the wrap has a logo, it is often not in the same position in the target as it was on the bow.
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:31 AM   #13
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A bare shaft will rotate the direction the string is twisted, as stated above this was determined by high speed photography and I just heard about this a month or so ago. Some of the big target shooters are actually matching helical fletching and the direction of the string twist. I have not personally seen the video but a mark of somekind was put on the shaft to make it more visible to determine rotation direction.
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:38 AM   #14
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I shoot primitive bows and arrows. My head hurts just trying to figure out what the heck you are getting at. Put the arrow on the string pull the bow back and let her ride. That is my two cents or maybe 4 well a nickels worth anyway.
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowe View Post
A bare shaft will rotate the direction the string is twisted, as stated above this was determined by high speed photography and I just heard about this a month or so ago. Some of the big target shooters are actually matching helical fletching and the direction of the string twist. I have not personally seen the video but a mark of somekind was put on the shaft to make it more visible to determine rotation direction.
So basically now I have order strings based my chosen helical direction so they won't dynamically opposed to each other?

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Old 11-01-2017, 08:56 AM   #16
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Are you hunting bees and going for a heart shot?

To answer you question it depends,
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:03 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Someone learned a new word.

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I can't pronounce it nor know the meaning of it. I just assume it means rotation to some degree.

Doug
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:33 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briar Friar View Post
The reason I ask is regard to fletching. Furthermore, is a centripetally motivated oscillating shaft enhanced or detracted by wing of the same curve?

What say yall?
Yes, it is called clocking, and there is no way to know for sure which way a shaft is going to clock (rotate).

Clocking is when we make a mark on the bareshaft, say at the top when it is nocked on the string, then shoot it into a target and see which way the mark has rotated. Some shafts will rotate clockwise and some will rotate anticlockwise, even from the same dozen. I have found the vast majority will rotate one way or the other.

For example, I may have nine shafts rotate clockwise and three rotate anticlockwise from the same dozen.

Some people will put the helical on to match the shafts natural rotation. IOW, a clockwise rotating shaft will get right helical and visa versa.

I believe the general consensus is that it doesn't matter which way you fletch the shaft in relation to its natural rotation; but instead fletch the shaft for the best clearance and stabilization.
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:39 AM   #19
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It's no wonder the immigrants from Europe were able to annihilate and subdue the Native American population.
They were centripetally, gyrationally, and oscilationally handicapped.

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Old 11-01-2017, 09:40 AM   #20
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And my work peers tell me i over think things.

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Old 11-01-2017, 09:44 AM   #21
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Hell my brace height was off by over an inch 2 weeks ago, so I'm probably not your go to guy on this one
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:47 AM   #22
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Honestly if the direction of twist on a string can make a difference in the balanced flight of my arrows I would twist it accordingly.

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Old 11-01-2017, 09:51 AM   #23
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHyqiDyFFXE
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:57 AM   #24
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Depends on what Bisch says.
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:58 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickbowcoop View Post
An arrow may be predisposition to spin during flight from shaft asymmetry (out of round), a less than perfectly straight arrow (even carbon) or poor nock/insert alignment. Vanes, feathers, etc., stabilize the arrow and forces it to spin more consistently. I have put wraps on bareshafts to get the same weight as fletched arrows and if the wrap has a logo, it is often not in the same position in the target as it was on the bow.
I could see this, but wouldn't have figured the seam would have played that big of a role during the short flight time. But it is a force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowe View Post
A bare shaft will rotate the direction the string is twisted, as stated above this was determined by high speed photography and I just heard about this a month or so ago. Some of the big target shooters are actually matching helical fletching and the direction of the string twist. I have not personally seen the video but a mark of somekind was put on the shaft to make it more visible to determine rotation direction.
I'm having a hard time with this one. The string's internal, friction based force that is being exerted perpendicular and equally at the point of the nock from the shaft doesn't seem to me to be something that should have any bearing. And then even so, the forces of a string are to impart either side to side forces or direct forces in the plane of the shaft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Yes, it is called clocking, and there is no way to know for sure which way a shaft is going to clock (rotate).

Clocking is when we make a mark on the bareshaft, say at the top when it is nocked on the string, then shoot it into a target and see which way the mark has rotated. Some shafts will rotate clockwise and some will rotate anticlockwise, even from the same dozen. I have found the vast majority will rotate one way or the other.

For example, I may have nine shafts rotate clockwise and three rotate anticlockwise from the same dozen.

Some people will put the helical on to match the shafts natural rotation. IOW, a clockwise rotating shaft will get right helical and visa versa.

I believe the general consensus is that it doesn't matter which way you fletch the shaft in relation to its natural rotation; but instead fletch the shaft for the best clearance and stabilization.
Seems like it would be based on where the seam is of the shaft... that is where the weight is along the circumference of the shaft. Ideally, you should be able to put that shaft on a very level and smooth table and figure out where it will settle out.



What would be more interesting to understand really is how much rotation occurs. if you get a 1/4 of rotation over 20 yards... does it really matter? What you are looking for in stabilization is a bit more of a spin rate than that.
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:22 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampRabbit View Post
Seems like it would be based on where the seam is of the shaft... that is where the weight is along the circumference of the shaft. Ideally, you should be able to put that shaft on a very level and smooth table and figure out where it will settle out.

What would be more interesting to understand really is how much rotation occurs. if you get a 1/4 of rotation over 20 yards... does it really matter? What you are looking for in stabilization is a bit more of a spin rate than that.
It is pretty easy to figure out where the spine is on an arrow with a ram tester or by using the water method; we have been doing this for decades.

I am not sure of the vectors or the forces involved that impart this rotation in a bareshaft arrow, but it is there. The problem with knowing the rate of rotation is one of being able to actually see the rotation.

Let's say our mark goes from the 12 O'clock position to the 6 O'clock position; did the arrow rotate only 180 or has it made 1.5 rotations (450)? Hard to say.

When clocking we start very close, say three feet, and then infer the direction of rotation based on the mark's offset. The premise being that the arrow doesn't have the time to make a full rotation at this distance, but it isn't known really, only inferred.

This not something that is done on a regular basis, even by top shooters, that I know of; it is out there, but now widely practiced.

As SwampRabbit said, the fletching imparts much more force; enough so that it really doesn't effect the outcome of the shaft's natural tendency to rotation.

It is enough of a factor though that it has been explored by renown archers such as Bernie Pellerite and Randy Ulmer in books and articles. Both if which, IIRC, do not actually tune to the shaft's initial rotation, but only mention it as one of the forces on an arrow and in relation to the distance an arrow travels before true stabilization begins. The inference being that some arrows will take a bit longer for the fletching to induce rotation due to having to overcome the shaft's natural inclination to rotate the other direction. To be fair, there is a difference, but it isn't much; and there is high speed video somewhere, if I can find it again I will post it here.

Last edited by Rat; 11-01-2017 at 10:48 AM..
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:24 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadHatter View Post
Depends on the angle of the dangle I suppose.
Nailed it
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:26 AM   #28
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Here is an article by Donnie Thacker on clocking, he is a top shooter who uses clocking in his arrow tuning process.

Arrow Clocking by Donnie Thacker
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:28 AM   #29
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Mind blown...


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Old 11-01-2017, 10:45 AM   #30
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The short answer to your question is - Yes, it is.

BUT the difference to a finger shooter is so minimal as to NEVER be able to tell the difference one way or the other in just the shooting.

What you have to keep in mind here is - all of this testing is done using releases, or shooting machines. Once you put your fingers on the string all that changes.

The arrow don't know which way your string is twisted, and your fingers (torque there of) are going to skew the result of a twist difference anyway.

"IF" you can actually see a physical difference, your nocks are probably way to tight on the string.

Rick

EDIT for a P.S.

I can fletch my arrows with a mixed left & right offset/helical, and they will fly & group together/the same, even with broadheads. Once my rig is tuned for good arrow flight the offset just don't make any difference.

Last edited by RickBarbee; 11-01-2017 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 11-01-2017, 10:55 AM   #31
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Not slow motion, but here is a good clocking video by Nestly from AT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY70S2ze8ew
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Old 11-01-2017, 12:50 PM   #32
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Somebody needs to give Eric (enewman) a call.. he is missing out
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Old 11-01-2017, 12:56 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Here is an article by Donnie Thacker on clocking, he is a top shooter who uses clocking in his arrow tuning process.

Arrow Clocking by Donnie Thacker
what is disappointing is that there is no explanation on what causes it or to what degree... just an archer's observation and an assumption that fletching to accommodate it is better than not caring.

yep... consider me disappointed.

gonna have to go fling some arrows to make me feel better about the whole situation now.
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Old 11-01-2017, 05:42 PM   #34
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sweetinlow660... Best answer by FAR!!!! And Scott... I knew you'd be ALL over this one! I, for one, am VERY particular bout the way my bow is shootin/tuned... But this takes it to a whole nother level of !!Good Huntin, and God Bless, Rusty
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Old 11-01-2017, 05:46 PM   #35
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Old 11-02-2017, 07:55 AM   #36
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Thank yall for the responses and constructive input.

Im gonna digest this for several days. I got busy and still working through the posted videos.

God bless. Have a good day.
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Old 11-02-2017, 08:29 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Yes, it is called clocking, and there is no way to know for sure which way a shaft is going to clock (rotate).

Clocking is when we make a mark on the bareshaft, say at the top when it is nocked on the string, then shoot it into a target and see which way the mark has rotated. Some shafts will rotate clockwise and some will rotate anticlockwise, even from the same dozen. I have found the vast majority will rotate one way or the other.

For example, I may have nine shafts rotate clockwise and three rotate anticlockwise from the same dozen.

Some people will put the helical on to match the shafts natural rotation. IOW, a clockwise rotating shaft will get right helical and visa versa.



I believe the general consensus is that it doesn't matter which way you fletch the shaft in relation to its natural rotation; but instead fletch the shaft for the best clearance and stabilization.
So how is it determined if the arrow rotated i.e. 90 degrees clockwise or 270 degrees counterclockwise? They would look alike. Serious question but I suspect the answers will not be.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:21 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60 Deluxe View Post
So how is it determined if the arrow rotated i.e. 90 degrees clockwise or 270 degrees counterclockwise? They would look alike. Serious question but I suspect the answers will not be.
As I said earlier, one cannot know, only infer. But if you watch the Nestly video I posted it is a pretty strong inference.
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Old 11-02-2017, 09:37 AM   #39
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Lousy internet here so I try to avoid videos. I will see if it works.
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Old 11-02-2017, 02:55 PM   #40
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Interesting but if that is all that an arrow rotates in that distance it doesn't appear to be much of a factor at the distances I shoot at. In fact, as little rotation as I see coming from the left helical I might as well stick with straight fletches. If it were turning several rotations it might make a difference.
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Old 11-02-2017, 03:04 PM   #41
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Go Astros!!!!
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Old 11-02-2017, 03:37 PM   #42
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They done good.

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Old 11-02-2017, 10:31 PM   #43
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Y'all need a hobby...unless this is it...in which case y'all need a scan ..of some type.
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:34 AM   #44
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Quote:
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Interesting but if that is all that an arrow rotates in that distance it doesn't appear to be much of a factor at the distances I shoot at. In fact, as little rotation as I see coming from the left helical I might as well stick with straight fletches. If it were turning several rotations it might make a difference.
The idea behind clocking is that the faster you can get an arrow to stabilize the more accurate it will be in the long run. This is also what Donnie Thacker states in his article.

Convention holds that if an arrow wants to naturally rotate clockwise then it should be fletched to rotate that direction. What would happen if it were fletched the other direction? In the slow motion video, which I have not been able to find, you can clearly see that the arrow does start to turn clockwise as it comes off the string before the control surfaces take over and start the rotation anticlockwise. Whereas the one fletched with the natural rotation doesn't have to stop the natural rotation before it begins to turn in the direction of the fletching.

There is a noticeable difference in the time it takes the arrow to start rotating in the direction of the fletching between the two shafts.

Is it enough to matter? Each shooter must answer that for themselves.

In the Nestly video you can see that the left wing arrow had made a full rotation at 15 feet whereas the right wing arrow had not yet overcome the arrow's natural rotation yet. It isn't until he shoots at 20 feet that the right wing arrow is back to it's starting position, which means the fletching are only starting to correct the arrows rotation at this distance. So, somewhere between 15 and 20 feet the right wing arrow makes an almost 40 correction. That's a pretty significant distance.
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:04 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
The idea behind clocking is that the faster you can get an arrow to stabilize the more accurate it will be in the long run. This is also what Donnie Thacker states in his article.

Convention holds that if an arrow wants to naturally rotate clockwise then it should be fletched to rotate that direction. What would happen if it were fletched the other direction? In the slow motion video, which I have not been able to find, you can clearly see that the arrow does start to turn clockwise as it comes off the string before the control surfaces take over and start the rotation anticlockwise. Whereas the one fletched with the natural rotation doesn't have to stop the natural rotation before it begins to turn in the direction of the fletching.

There is a noticeable difference in the time it takes the arrow to start rotating in the direction of the fletching between the two shafts.

Is it enough to matter? Each shooter must answer that for themselves.

In the Nestly video you can see that the left wing arrow had made a full rotation at 15 feet whereas the right wing arrow had not yet overcome the arrow's natural rotation yet. It isn't until he shoots at 20 feet that the right wing arrow is back to it's starting position, which means the fletching are only starting to correct the arrows rotation at this distance. So, somewhere between 15 and 20 feet the right wing arrow makes an almost 40 correction. That's a pretty significant distance.
Good stuff. Rat rules! I never knew of clocking. I was always under the conception that a bareshaft doesnt rotate due to no fletching guidance but figured some vectoring forces and flawed human input caused shaft torque in some fashion.

This is exactly what I was looking for. I reason that an arrow that has to fight the natural rotation would lose some of its energy down range working against itself. A loss in fps, KE, momentum, bone splitting torque, etc.

I couldnt ever see if Nestly was shooting left handed or right handed. Im thinking right handed the way his gear belt was set up.
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:13 PM   #46
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Here's something to think about.

Yes, it is an imperfection in the material, that creates a balance offset, which then creates a natural rotation.

Now, with that in mind:
Could you not change the direction of that rotation simply by changing the nock position to change where that balance offset initially occurs? Pretty sure you can.

By the way - this is nothing new.
I've seen folks plug the ends of, and float their carbons in the bathtub to find the heavy side (which is always the stiffest side).
They then marked that heavy side, and made sure their nock orientation was the same in relation to that side on every shaft.

This process served two purposes.
(1) It finds the stiffest side of the shaft for determining where you want it's orientation to the strike plate, or launcher.
(2) It allows you to set your arrows up, so that stiffness, and weight offset can be aligned/matched on every shaft using nock orientation.

Then, there's that thing about your fingers on the string. The torque on the string from your fingers is going to change all that up drastically, and since we're human, it likely changes it a bit different from one shot to the next.

This stuff may have some significant impact on shooters using bows placing the arrow at perfectly center shot position, and using a mechanical release that does not create any torque on the string, but like I said, once you place your fingers on that string all of those consistent results are gone.

Rick
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:09 PM   #47
Rat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briar Friar View Post
I couldnt ever see if Nestly was shooting left handed or right handed. Im thinking right handed the way his gear belt was set up.
Yes, Nestly is a righty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
Here's something to think about.

Yes, it is an imperfection in the material, that creates a balance offset, which then creates a natural rotation.

Now, with that in mind:
Could you not change the direction of that rotation simply by changing the nock position to change where that balance offset initially occurs? Pretty sure you can.

By the way - this is nothing new.
I've seen folks plug the ends of, and float their carbons in the bathtub to find the heavy side (which is always the stiffest side).
They then marked that heavy side, and made sure their nock orientation was the same in relation to that side on every shaft.

This process served two purposes.
(1) It finds the stiffest side of the shaft for determining where you want it's orientation to the strike plate, or launcher.
(2) It allows you to set your arrows up, so that stiffness, and weight offset can be aligned/matched on every shaft using nock orientation.

Then, there's that thing about your fingers on the string. The torque on the string from your fingers is going to change all that up drastically, and since we're human, it likely changes it a bit different from one shot to the next.

This stuff may have some significant impact on shooters using bows placing the arrow at perfectly center shot position, and using a mechanical release that does not create any torque on the string, but like I said, once you place your fingers on that string all of those consistent results are gone.

Rick
Rick, this is called spine indexing and has been, as you stated, going on for a long time; even when all we had were Aluminum arrows.

However, I have never found that indexing the nock of an arrow to effect the arrow's natural direction of rotation. This goes back to not really knowing what forces cause the natural rotation to begin with.

I have some arrows that go one direction, and others that go the other; sometimes out of the same dozen.

But I agree with you, fingers on the string may counter all of this; I wouldn't know, my fingers haven't drawn a bow in 20 years or so.
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:19 PM   #48
RickBarbee
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But I agree with you, fingers on the string may counter all of this; I wouldn't know, my fingers haven't drawn a bow in 20 years or so.
That's why I brought it up. Few (if any) on this side of the forum will be using a release aid.

I'm not disagreeing with the phenomenon. Not in the least.
I just don't believe it will ever apply to a finger shooter.

Rick
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Old 11-04-2017, 11:47 AM   #49
Briar Friar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
That's why I brought it up. Few (if any) on this side of the forum will be using a release aid.

I'm not disagreeing with the phenomenon. Not in the least.
I just don't believe it will ever apply to a finger shooter.

Rick
I would think that clocking would be exacerbated by a finger flinger due to more torque exerted on the string and subsequently on the arrow shaft. Versus a release aid used to eliminate the torque...eliminate more variable inconsistencies that finger flingers accomodate.

Rick... I appreciate your input and especially tidbits of tuning tricks like the bathtub indexing.
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