Selling a Firearm

[trophy8]

The ATF officer used to frequent my department for that sort of thing and we hunted together so I asked him about that sort of deal. It wasn’t “registered” in the sense of being listed like in other states. But the last report of selling the firearm on a 4473 form was his name and address. So when the pistol was found they ran the serial number for the last transaction to find out who owned it it popped up as a sale to my friend at a pawn shop like 15 years ago. So they went straight to him since they didn’t really have any leads on the murderer at that time.

I do not let anyone take a picture or copy of my LTC or DL. I’ve sold a bunch of guns over the years. I buy and sell a lot. Easily 100+. Remember the innocent until proven guilty part. I don’t need to have a bill of sale. Won’t hold up in court anyway. I’ve told a few guys I’m not doing one when I buy. They hesitated at first but went through with it. I’ll SHOW you but you won’t keep any info from me lol.



Also, they aren’t supposed to keep a record like that. FFL must keep it on file for X amount of years. But they shouldn’t be able to pull that up on a computer like that. I may be wrong....

[Guest]

I do not let anyone take a picture or copy of my LTC or DL. I’ve sold a bunch of guns over the years. I buy and sell a lot. Easily 100+. Remember the innocent until proven guilty part. I don’t need to have a bill of sale. Won’t hold up in court anyway. I’ve told a few guys I’m not doing one when I buy. They hesitated at first but went through with it. I’ll SHOW you but you won’t keep any info from me lol.

I agree entirely lol thats getting a little warm and fuzzy for my liking.
I believe he said just a letter of piece of paper with the date the gun was sold, make and serial number, then each person print and sign their name. Like you said it won’t hold up in court it will mainly just help you help the officers move on to the next leg of the investigation.

As far as the time of record retention I believe he said it was 50 years. However it was just a conversation we had and I don’t remember that part of it.

[Clay C]

I do not let anyone take a picture or copy of my LTC or DL. I’ve sold a bunch of guns over the years. I buy and sell a lot. Easily 100+. Remember the innocent until proven guilty part. I don’t need to have a bill of sale. Won’t hold up in court anyway. I’ve told a few guys I’m not doing one when I buy. They hesitated at first but went through with it. I’ll SHOW you but you won’t keep any info from me lol.



Also, they aren’t supposed to keep a record like that. FFL must keep it on file for X amount of years. But they shouldn’t be able to pull that up on a computer like that. I may be wrong....

They don’t have it in a “system” which is why is isn’t “registration”. But they can track the serial number from the manufacturer to the dealer then request 4473s from the dealer. It’s bull crap, but whatever. Still better than a centralised registry.

Im not giving or requesting anything during a private sell. If someone wants to glance at my LTC that’s fine. Why people are ok with strangers seeing or obtaining personal info like address and Drivers license number is beyond me, but to each his own. I had a guy once tell me he’d require a copy of my drivers license in order to sell me a gun [emoji53].

Nothing of the such is required. If the ATF comes knocking, a piece of computer paper with some info you could have made up isn’t going to vindicate you.


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[Clay C]

As far as the time of record retention I believe he said it was 50 years. However it was just a conversation we had and I don’t remember that part of it.

I think it’s around 20.



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[Tuffbroadhead]

Licensees shall retain each ATF Form 4473 for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. The ATF has the authority to inspect or request a copy of the form if agents are conducting a criminal investigation. An if you drop your FFl you are required to turn in all of your records to the atf and that includes all of your 4473's

[TacticalCowboy]

"Liability" and "Due Diligence"...same reason I run a background investigation on students before I let them into a course.

What liability is there if a seller follows the stated law? Why do I need to keep personal information about a buyer on hand?

If I am not KNOWINGLY selling a firearm to a prohibited individual, there is no liability on my part.

[Mike D]

At best I will show you my LTC just to give you warm and fuzzy. Other than that if you want to copy anything or try and have me sign something you can **** off and keep your gun.

Don’t understand why anyone would want to help the government track down gun owners. There’s a reason for doing private sales with no records. At least in free states anyway.


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[RJH1]

I ain't showing nothing, I ain't asking for nothing, and if i don't like the way you look, i won't sell you anything.

[Radar]

What liability is there if a seller follows the stated law? Why do I need to keep personal information about a buyer on hand?

If I am not KNOWINGLY selling a firearm to a prohibited individual, there is no liability on my part.

My dad bought a S&W snubbie at a gunshow from a private individual. Dad sold the gun to another fella, who in turn sold it a guy that had the local PD run the serial numbers. That fella wanted the gun for his wife to carry and wanted to make sure it was "clean", even though the PD said if its hot we keep the gun.

Well it came back stolen in Illinois in 1985 and may have been used in some sort of crime. So, dad was visited and asked where he got the gun. Dad said I got it from the gun show from some fella.

The investigator told Dad(70years old then) he needed a name where it came from or he would go to jail till he remembers. Dad called me, said I dont the guys name but he always at the gun show. I told him to start calling his gun trading buddies till he found out, and he did. Finally got a name and gave it to the investigator. That happened 15 years ago and it rattled Dad for a month or two, but he still trades around and will not trade for a gun unless he knows your name.

I really dont know if you can go to jail if you unknowingly sell a stolen firearm, but if I buy a gun from you I will know your name.

After that church shooting in Sutherland Springs, dad wont touch an AR now.

[TacticalCowboy]

My dad bought a S&W snubbie at a gunshow from a private individual. Dad sold the gun to another fella, who in turn sold it a guy that had the local PD run the serial numbers. That fella wanted the gun for his wife to carry and wanted to make sure it was "clean", even though the PD said if its hot we keep the gun.

Well it came back stolen in Illinois in 1985 and may have been used in some sort of crime. So, dad was visited and asked where he got the gun. Dad said I got it from the gun show from some fella.

The investigator told Dad(70years old then) he needed a name where it came from or he would go to jail till he remembers. Dad called me, said I dont the guys name but he always at the gun show. I told him to start calling his gun trading buddies till he found out, and he did. Finally got a name and gave it to the investigator. That happened 15 years ago and it rattled Dad for a month or two, but he still trades around and will not trade for a gun unless he knows your name.

I really dont know if you can go to jail if you unknowingly sell a stolen firearm, but if I buy a gun from you I will know your name.

After that church shooting in Sutherland Springs, dad wont touch an AR now.

Sounds like a police scare tactic.

[captainsling]

I simply ask someone if there is any reason they can not own or purchase a firearm legally. If they say no, I sell them the gun. I have done my due diligence. Nothing in the law says I can't sell to them. If they misrepresent themselves, that is on them.

[Mike D]

Sounds like a police scare tactic.

Yep. If he had done anything illegal they would have arrested him instead of threatening.


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[texaspacker]

When I buy or sell a firearm to someone. Most of the time I already have their name and phone number. So I just add what I bought or sold to the persons contact information on my phone. That's good enough for me and the girls I go with.
I have had one or two guys ask me to sign a bill of sale when I've bought or sold a firearm to them. None have asked to see my drivers license.
This maybe completely wrong. Isn't possession 9-10th of the law?

[trophy8]

Sounds like a police scare tactic.

Yep. And a poor attempt lol

[Javelin]

My dad bought a S&W snubbie at a gunshow from a private individual. Dad sold the gun to another fella, who in turn sold it a guy that had the local PD run the serial numbers. That fella wanted the gun for his wife to carry and wanted to make sure it was "clean", even though the PD said if its hot we keep the gun.

Well it came back stolen in Illinois in 1985 and may have been used in some sort of crime. So, dad was visited and asked where he got the gun. Dad said I got it from the gun show from some fella.

The investigator told Dad(70years old then) he needed a name where it came from or he would go to jail till he remembers. Dad called me, said I dont the guys name but he always at the gun show. I told him to start calling his gun trading buddies till he found out, and he did. Finally got a name and gave it to the investigator. That happened 15 years ago and it rattled Dad for a month or two, but he still trades around and will not trade for a gun unless he knows your name.

I really dont know if you can go to jail if you unknowingly sell a stolen firearm, but if I buy a gun from you I will know your name.

After that church shooting in Sutherland Springs, dad wont touch an AR now.

he should have told them to pound sand then left to go buy a new gun just to make it a good day