Regarding " culling"

[TKK]

I think it definitely makes sense to take the bottom end of your older buck classes as a management technique at population control as well as what genetic improvement can be done. I think people get too caught up in what they want to call it. Heck call them all trophies for all I care.

There are extremes to each argument either way but you cant tell me genetics don't play a role in trophy deer. Shooting the lower say 20% (just throwing a wild number out there) of your 4 or 5+ year old buck age classes definitely doesn't have much downside if your goal is top end trophy type deer.

Fact is most hunters on the majority of Texas leases want to see lots of deer (overpopulated), shoot "trophies" when they are 4 year olds, and normally have way more hunters than can actually take a "trophy" each year on the ranch. It definitely doesn't equate to growing "trophy" deer like everyone wants to shoot.

On our free range lease we don't have a lot of hunters and don't like having to shoot a large number of deer each year. When bucks hit 5+ we start hammering on the lower end of those age classes. We also shoot 4 year olds with 7 or less points or junky types. Call those whatever you want. We don't want to feed them and along with a lot of doe we don't want an overpopulated number of deer to have to deal with harvesting. To me its a combination of working on genetics and population control harvesting those bucks.

agree with this totally - method has proven itself on our LF ranch - we have too many multi-pointed bucks to let 8 points or under walk until they are mature - we get after does too - end of day it is about limiting the number of mouths to match a properties carrying capacity

[ArcheryAddict]

I am definitely not picking any fights with the following comment, but something that I have always felt wasn't right with A LOT of managed ranches I have been on is the taking of the does. Every ranch I have been on that really tries to manage and puts considerable money into have no problem with shooting does at the end of the season.

Supposedly (just something I have read multiple places) a mature buck will only "get" 1 to 2 does in the primary rut and maybe 1 in the secondary rut. If that is true, why would you save the does for the rut to be shot later when they may have been bred by a superior buck?

Pros -
-This would make the bucks come to the feeder more often than normal to scent check the does.

Cons -
-Immature or inferior bucks have better opportunity for breeding

If you shot the does before the rut:

Pros -

-Betters the chances for the superior bucks to breed since their are less available
-The does will be shot anyway, so why shoot them once impregnated and taking the chance that she may have been bred by Big Daddy

Cons -

Alerts the mature bucks to hunting season once weapons started firing off or their buddies started dropping beside them

Just my way of looking at it I guess. Not saying it is right or wrong, nor anyone else's methods. Just something I always wanted to start a lease off by doing. Up to 100% of the does shot before the rut as well as all management and culls along the way for a few years, and your trophies IF they came out. If not, then no trophy that year.

Then after 3 years of doing it, then see if there are advantages to it or not. After all, it is a long term investment, not a short term or overnight process.

The drawback is putting out all the cash and quite possibly not getting a trophy for 3+ years.

But if I am ever fortunate enough to have my own large ranch, I would high fence the place and split it in two and manage one side this way and the other in more widely accepted manners and see how it came out.

John

[mjbtexas]

I agree with Kenneth. You can manage deer on low fence properties
And culling is part of the process.
Now some people are in a different situation than others . Try to do it on a small property with bad neighbors would
Be tough. We hunt South Texas. We have 16,000 acres low fence and a big ranch that is low fence on two sides of us but only hunted a few time's a year.The other side is a large low
Fence ranch that we have a good working relationship with. We are trying to grow big Trophy deer. Deer that we think should be manages or culled by our standards are different than most other Hunter's. Not bragging just saying we are different than most . We only have 10 spots on 16,000 acres. We feed protein and cottonseed.
We let our deer get age in them. Most trophies are taken after
7-1/2 yrs old. We do not shoot young deer. We start culling when deer hit 4yrs old. If he is an 8 or 9 point and is sitting at 120-135 we feel that we have a lot better deer already in. The 140+ range. We don't want to feed them anymore. This buck we took this weekend is 8-1/2yrs old and score 131. He weighed 254 on the hoof. We have tried till kill him for 3 years because he is a protein hog. Like I said we are the exception to the rule. Most everyone would consider this a trophy. But by doing what we do for 16 years we have brought our deer class up from 145 to 170+ deer with several between 180-200. Pretty good for low fence, free range all nature south Texas genetic's. I have had several people from TBH on this ranch and I think they can speak for a good management program.


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awesome pics and thanks for sharing your expertise.

[bbqfan5909]

The mass on that sucker, wow!

[txwhitetail]

I am definitely not picking any fights with the following comment, but something that I have always felt wasn't right with A LOT of managed ranches I have been on is the taking of the does. Every ranch I have been on that really tries to manage and puts considerable money into have no problem with shooting does at the end of the season.

Supposedly (just something I have read multiple places) a mature buck will only "get" 1 to 2 does in the primary rut and maybe 1 in the secondary rut. If that is true, why would you save the does for the rut to be shot later when they may have been bred by a superior buck?

Pros -
-This would make the bucks come to the feeder more often than normal to scent check the does.

Cons -
-Immature or inferior bucks have better opportunity for breeding

If you shot the does before the rut:

Pros -

-Betters the chances for the superior bucks to breed since their are less available
-The does will be shot anyway, so why shoot them once impregnated and taking the chance that she may have been bred by Big Daddy

Cons -

Alerts the mature bucks to hunting season once weapons started firing off or their buddies started dropping beside them

Just my way of looking at it I guess. Not saying it is right or wrong, nor anyone else's methods. Just something I always wanted to start a lease off by doing. Up to 100% of the does shot before the rut as well as all management and culls along the way for a few years, and your trophies IF they came out. If not, then no trophy that year.

Then after 3 years of doing it, then see if there are advantages to it or not. After all, it is a long term investment, not a short term or overnight process.

The drawback is putting out all the cash and quite possibly not getting a trophy for 3+ years.

But if I am ever fortunate enough to have my own large ranch, I would high fence the place and split it in two and manage one side this way and the other in more widely accepted manners and see how it came out.

John

We shoot doe as early as possible.

[TKK]

culling may not change genetics but it sure as heck can limit the impact of poor genetics. If left alone, nature will produce mostly 8 point deer. Go look at un-managed, LF ranches in the hill country. You will mostly find 8 point and under deer.

We have culled heavily (both inferior bucks and lots of does) on a LF ranch and the results show it is effective. It is a long term deal and must be coupled with other management effort but a herd can most certainly be impacted by aggressive culling.

[686]

Regarding " culling"

Supposedly (just something I have read multiple places) a mature buck will only "get" 1 to 2 does in the primary rut and maybe 1 in the secondary rut. If that is true, why would you save the does for the rut to be shot later when they may have been bred by a superior buck?



John

Interesting point John, thanks for posting, and I think you might be onto a larger concept, which would be: Culling Before the Rut, both Does and Bucks may be a good idea (long term). The data I've seen shows two things: "big daddy" Bucks that look great may or may not be prolific breeders, and lousy and young bucks do get some does bred.

It's similar to raising cattle - in a herd of 300 black cattle you can't necessarily tell by looks which bulls are getting all the cows bred. So what bigger cattle operations do is paternity test the calves so they can find out which bulls produce the best and most calves, and then they cull out the bulls that are low or low quality producers. So it's a two fold benefit, they stop feeding "lazy" bulls and give more opportunities to the bulls that throw the best calves.

So going off of your point about "why shoot a doe late when she may be carrying Big Daddy jr.?" is valid. It would make sense to trim down your doe numbers early so the prolific big daddy bucks can keep a higher percentage of the remaining does covered, and then let the does walk so they can drop those Bid Daddy Jrs. in the spring.

Also, since the low end bucks are going to breed some does, it would make sense to take the low end bucks out before the rut so the Big Daddy bucks can cover the does that might have otherwise been bred by a low end buck.

Here's some data (from the link in my earlier post) that supports this in my opinion:

In this pasture, buck "R4" was both a higher end buck (for this ranch) and he was a workhorse, getting 16 does bred. However, if you look at the pie chart, there was "Buck 80" that had bigger antlers (20" more B&C score), but only bred one doe. (Just because he's big doesn't mean he works hard)




In this pasture, "Buck 40" was a high end buck that pulled his weight, breeding 12 does, but as you can see from the pie chart, a lot of the other does were bred by some pretty low B&C score bucks. Specifically - "Buck 37" was a 5 year old buck with a 48" B&C score (yuck!). It would have been nice to get him out of the gene pool before he bred those 6 does.

[Krivoman]

sometimes even the culls are nice, but they are still culls..



127 1/8 inch aint bad for a 7. But I dont want to see a bunch of deer that look like him running around..

[160class]

I agree with Kenneth. You can manage deer on low fence properties
And culling is part of the process.
Now some people are in a different situation than others . Try to do it on a small property with bad neighbors would
Be tough. We hunt South Texas. We have 16,000 acres low fence and a big ranch that is low fence on two sides of us but only hunted a few time's a year.The other side is a large low
Fence ranch that we have a good working relationship with. We are trying to grow big Trophy deer. Deer that we think should be manages or culled by our standards are different than most other Hunter's. Not bragging just saying we are different than most . We only have 10 spots on 16,000 acres. We feed protein and cottonseed.
We let our deer get age in them. Most trophies are taken after
7-1/2 yrs old. We do not shoot young deer. We start culling when deer hit 4yrs old. If he is an 8 or 9 point and is sitting at 120-135 we feel that we have a lot better deer already in. The 140+ range. We don't want to feed them anymore. This buck we took this weekend is 8-1/2yrs old and score 131. He weighed 254 on the hoof. We have tried till kill him for 3 years because he is a protein hog. Like I said we are the exception to the rule. Most everyone would consider this a trophy. But by doing what we do for 16 years we have brought our deer class up from 145 to 170+ deer with several between 180-200. Pretty good for low fence, free range all nature south Texas genetic's. I have had several people from TBH on this ranch and I think they can speak for a good management program.


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Same with our place, we are a very big place and only have one side that is hunted and it is heavily managed, it can be done on a LF you just have to have the right place.

And as TKK said, you will never shoot out the 8 point genetic, however you can get it to where more of your bigger deer are breeding the does vs having the bully 8 ruling the roost and breeding all the does.

It also becomes a numbers game as to the mouths we are feeding, if we dont want to feed that deer anymore because he is not gonna reach the goal we are trying to achieve we will get him out of the herd.

[BolilloLoco]

I like a big 7pt

[160class]

sometimes even the culls are nice, but they are still culls..

[ATTACH]821168[/ATTACH]

127 1/8 inch aint bad for a 7. But I dont want to see a bunch of deer that look like him running around..

Man I am a sucker for big 6s and 7s, i have one on the wall that went 126 and his 7th point is maybe 2'', they're awesome to come across and kill, but not what you want in the heard!

[bloodtrailer28]

So you guys are really saying that culling/management is useless on low fence ranches??? Seriously????


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I think on the LF places it has to do more with the size of the place. Most people dont have 5-10k acre LF places where culling can actually do some good.

We let everything walk till at least 4 and have seen the numbers of our "trophys" go up the past few years. I would much rather have more mature deer for friends and family to hunt than cull the hell out of em at a young age.

[d_e_smith]

I can't help but notice the dates and age estimate on Buck 40.

[686]

I can't help but notice the dates and age estimate on Buck 40.

Yeah, I don't know if they were trying to illustrate that aging is an inexact science or if it's a typo.

[Kdog]

Cool looking buck!

Enhance nutrition, protect young bucks, balance sex ratios. That is at least 90% of the equation. I got my deer management degree on the internet BTW .