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Old 03-09-2017, 09:13 PM   #51
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Some folks are cool. But they ain't Bob Lee cool!
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:18 PM   #52
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Some folks are cool. But they ain't Bob Lee cool!


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Old 03-09-2017, 09:21 PM   #53
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Wow Bob, thanks for sharing. You have an interesting philosophy, I'll give you that. You are indeed broad-minded. I can't say that I'd agree with much of what you believe, but that is perfectly OK. Probably still be fun to share a real campfire with you sir. Thank you again for sharing.


I would like to congratulate you on your open-mindedness also.

We tend to strike out at each other around here based on our political beliefs and that's not the way we should be.

I would share a real campfire with you as well. I am betting it would be a great evening
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:30 PM   #54
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Yessir, I'd have to agree with that too. Dang, that's 2 things now! Scary huh!?
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:34 PM   #55
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Yessir, I'd have to agree with that too. Dang, that's 2 things now! Scary huh!?


We all good
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:49 PM   #56
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Mr. Bob Lee for the WIN!
Most of us Libertarians couldn't state it any better if we had a week to prepare a response. Well done.

Bottom line, stay in your lane, manage your own sheeeit.
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:51 PM   #57
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How do we get Bob Lee elevated to commander-in-chief?
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Old 03-10-2017, 08:24 PM   #58
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I genuinely appreciate all the positive and flattering replies to my far-too-long post last evening. To the point that I feel just a little bit embarrassed. I had no intention of saying anything. I was just reading here and there and impulsively, I said what I said and then I did some things and I went on to bed, without looking back until this morning.

My post was chock full of errors and I doubled up with some words and I was redundant and I said some things better left unsaid and I failed to say a few that I maybe intended to say when I began. I had no particular plan and I just shared my thoughts as they seemed to form. I put it together as I typed, the endeavor took all of about 10 minutes.

I, even when a little bit drunk or kinda stoned, do not consider myself to be even remotely special. I guess, for lack of a better description, unusual I suppose. But I'm stuck with me. When the alarm goes off each morning, after bopping the snooze button a couple of times, I switch on the light and I look up at the ceiling and guess who's laying there? An ordinary man with an extraordinary love of fun and all that life has to offer. Fun and pleasure will not seek you out. You have to look for it, create it.

Whatever. Two cups of coffee and a cigarette (don't say a effing word about cigarettes, I already know), and I'm in a good mood. Because I should be. Good kids and good grandkids that love me and respect me and want time with me. Good health and good money that I don't really have to exert myself to earn. My fool boss / company CEO continues to buy it. Mucho dinero, trabajo poquito.

I would love to sit down by the fire with practically every TBH member (couple exceptions} and listen to some stories and to tell some stories.
And boys and girls, I have a wealth of stories to tell. Far too many X rated.

Somewhere in the Bible, there's a passage about talents given to all of us; what we choose to do with them left is up to us.

Probably, it's my Irish and Choctaw lineage. I do love to tell stories to all that care to listen and to few that had just as soon not to. I like to think that my given talent is for story telling. All would (will be) true. Please indulge me to elaborate on the subject. A story is like a piece of cloth or fabric, real as rain. But to entice or pull attention, the story teller must apply some embroidery, some lace... To said ordinary piece of cloth, in order to make it interesting and attractive. I can do that because God told me I could.

Directly to XbowHunter: I have no desire, no interest whatsoever to be Commander in Chief of anything or anyone. I just want to be in charge of me, and most days that's almost more than I can handle.


Bob Lee
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:00 PM   #59
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Well said Bob. Thanks again.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:46 AM   #60
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Stop while you're ahead

Bob Lee for president !!!!!!
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:03 AM   #61
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I'm sorry XBow for hijacking your very interesting and I feel productive thread. It was Friday evening, a couple stiff gin-and-tonics and I got a little too chatty.

But that doesn't excuse it. Please accept my apology.


Bob Lee

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Old 03-11-2017, 09:12 AM   #62
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I'm sorry XBow for hijacking your very interest and I feel productive thread. It was Friday evening, a couple stiff gin-and-tonics and I got a little too chatty.



But that doesn't excuse it. Please accept my apology.





Bob Lee


Dude, no apologies necessary.

You didn't say anything offensive.

I think this thread is a bit enlightening as well.

It's all good
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Old 03-11-2017, 02:48 PM   #63
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Generally speaking...

Conservatives - Religiously motivated and politically obsessed with the concept of America being a Christian nation (see Ted Cruz)

Libertarians - not so much (see Penn Jillete)

Penn Jillette on Libertarianism, Taxes, Trump, Clinton and Weed

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I AGREE, PLAY EMBEDDED VIDEO
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:25 PM   #64
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Generally speaking...



Conservatives - Religiously motivated and politically obsessed with the concept of America being a Christian nation (see Ted Cruz)



Libertarians - not so much (see Penn Jillete)



Penn Jillette on Libertarianism, Taxes, Trump, Clinton and Weed



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Thanks for sharing


Here's another one describing the differences

http://youtu.be/CMSRYnvywaU
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:42 PM   #65
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Judeo Christian beliefs were a large part of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. But , by all means it was not the ONLY voice in the room as noted by many historical documents. For me on a PERSONAL level it is VERY difficult to reconcile or pretend to reconcile that those Judeo Christian beliefs were the over-riding theme of any of those documents. If that was truly the case.........lets say..........other decisions would have been made as it pertains to our forming documents.
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Old 03-12-2017, 11:34 AM   #66
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So Gary Johnson was some of y'alls man?.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXhR41lsEJY

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Old 03-12-2017, 04:34 PM   #67
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So Gary Johnson was some of y'alls man?.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXhR41lsEJY


No Gary Johnson represents a small minority of real Libertarians.


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Old 03-12-2017, 06:02 PM   #68
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.
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Old 03-12-2017, 06:41 PM   #69
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The only libertarian ive seen worth listening to is Rand Paul. I agree with a good bit of the things he says.
There would be no America had the Christian faith not dominated the decision making process.
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Old 03-12-2017, 07:54 PM   #70
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There would be no America had the Christian faith not dominated the decision making process.
Link?
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:04 PM   #71
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Smh
No link needed, just a slight grasp of American history.
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:30 PM   #72
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Smh
No link needed, just a slight grasp of American history.


I guess the Texas schools that I grew up in did not teach me that.
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:35 PM   #73
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Its not typical of schools to teach accurate hist. At any level.
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:48 PM   #74
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I am curious what you did learn in those Tx schools
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Old 03-12-2017, 09:59 PM   #75
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Link?
Really? You don't believe that. Did you even go to school?
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:13 PM   #76
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Really? You don't believe that. Did you even go to school?
He may be fairly young and lord knows schools most likely have not taught true American hist. In 25 years. I have not seen any text books in a very long time but i doubt they teach anything about the faith of the founding fathers, or that of those who came here before them
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:25 PM   #77
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Link?
This is a pretty good read with separate analysis from 5 history professors.

Was America founded as a Christian nation?

That question has served a variety of political causes since July 4, 1776, from legalizing persecution and aiding runaway slaves to fighting Nazis and Communists.

The scholars below have spent years reflecting on the intersection of American religion and nationalism. Their answers to the question invite us to examine the motivations behind the controversy: Why do so many people think the country's Christian history is so important?


http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living...istian-nation/
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Old 03-13-2017, 06:09 AM   #78
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This is a pretty good read with separate analysis from 5 history professors.



Was America founded as a Christian nation?



That question has served a variety of political causes since July 4, 1776, from legalizing persecution and aiding runaway slaves to fighting Nazis and Communists.



The scholars below have spent years reflecting on the intersection of American religion and nationalism. Their answers to the question invite us to examine the motivations behind the controversy: Why do so many people think the country's Christian history is so important?




http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living...istian-nation/


Thanks, very well informative article.
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Old 03-13-2017, 06:15 AM   #79
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Its not typical of schools to teach accurate hist. At any level.


On that we agree. They taught me Columbus discovered America, that's a joke!!!!!
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Old 03-13-2017, 10:48 AM   #80
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Link?
This happened way before "links". Obviously not all the founders were Christians, and we were not actually founded as technically a "christian nation", but reading the founders letters, newspaper articles and other writings clearly proves that Christian principles were a ( the ) driving force behind the founding of this Country. There is no, and can be no disputing this fact. The writings are there and the founders intentions are clear.

Again, we are well aware that not all were Christians, and it is well known that some were athiests. But from the very first "official" arrivals until this very day, God, Christianity and its principles has been a driving force in the US.
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Old 03-13-2017, 11:14 AM   #81
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This happened way before "links". Obviously not all the founders were Christians, and we were not actually founded as technically a "christian nation", but reading the founders letters, newspaper articles and other writings clearly proves that Christian principles were a ( the ) driving force behind the founding of this Country. There is no, and can be no disputing this fact. The writings are there and the founders intentions are clear.

Again, we are well aware that not all were Christians, and it is well known that some were athiests. But from the very first "official" arrivals until this very day, God, Christianity and its principles has been a driving force in the US.
Yes sir
And www.wallbuilders.com is a great resource for those letters and other great historical documents.
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Old 03-13-2017, 12:10 PM   #82
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This happened way before "links". Obviously not all the founders were Christians, and we were not actually founded as technically a "christian nation", but reading the founders letters, newspaper articles and other writings clearly proves that Christian principles were a ( the ) driving force behind the founding of this Country. There is no, and can be no disputing this fact. The writings are there and the founders intentions are clear.



Again, we are well aware that not all were Christians, and it is well known that some were athiests. But from the very first "official" arrivals until this very day, God, Christianity and its principles has been a driving force in the US.


And sometimes that causes problems.

Big problems.

See alcohol prohibition & the war on drugs.


Complete and utter failures, and yet we continue with one of them.


Just one more reason why I'm a libertarian

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Old 03-13-2017, 12:22 PM   #83
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I may be totally off base and dead wrong, but what I DO BELIEVE is that this nation was and is blessed by God and Judaeo-Christian principles indeed played a major role in its development and laws. There are a few old traditions and such that give the younger folks a hint of those convictions... like placing your hand on the Bible at traditional swearing-in ceremonies of government officials comes to mind as a good example...

To me THE biggest shift in our nation's morals, traditions, and culture came when the libtards were successful in removing prayer from our public schools... This started a downhill spiral of the moral fiber and strength of this great nation that will be its downfall and bring it to ruin. The final death nail of the removal of God's blessing on this nation will be the day when we turn our backs on Israel. Until that day, we at least have a chance to turn it around and get back to the founding principles on which America was founded.
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Old 03-13-2017, 01:15 PM   #84
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As stated above, many of the founders principles were Judaeo-Christian in origin, but one of the first things they did is to declare there would be no state religion. (which was common for states in colonial times) As has been well documented, the founders personal beliefs in the religious realm ran the gamut from devout to deist to skeptic. The overriding and most important issue they did agree on is where our rights come from. Unlike in monarchies where the crown had the power to dole out rights as he/she saw fit, this nation was founded on the idea that our basic rights come from God. Or as Jefferson put it in the Declaration, "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God". Besides the Bible, the founder's biggest influence were the early philosophers of Classical Liberalism and Empiricism*. In a nutshell, classical liberalism is the philosophy that individual rights pre-exist the state and the only legitimate purpose of the state is to protect those rights. That is why the Bill of Rights are all "negative rights" - restraining the government from interfering in respect to these basic rights.

When I hear somebody say "the Constitution gives me the right! " to do one thing or another, I always want to tell them that the Constitution does not give the the right - you already had the right. The Constitution is there to stop the government from violating those rights.

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Adam Smith
John Locke
David Hume

EDIT: is it a sign that a post is too long when you include footnotes?
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Old 03-13-2017, 01:49 PM   #85
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The other major shift in our nation's stability, culture and helped the downward spiral was when the draft was eliminated and we went to an all-volunteer military... again Jimmy Carter, another libtard, was responsible for that...
After that, the pride and ownership of "The Great American Experiment" took a nose dive. When I was growing up, we all knew that sooner or later we'd all have to take our turn at defending America and all She stands for. That is certainly not the case today. Reinstating the draft would likely be as hard as taking away an entitlement from the millions of "victims" and recipients of the entitlement once given (AKA ObamaCare), but such a move could save this nation... of course it could also just hasten the push (or jump) over the cliff into the abyss too.
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Old 03-13-2017, 02:40 PM   #86
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I've been trying to dig up an interview that I heard a few years ago and I finally found it. This is a very interesting interview on the subject of what America's founders believed.

The interview was conducted by Dr. Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. The interviewee is Dr. Gregg Frazer, who has studied this topic extensively and who did his doctoral dissertation on it. He later published the book "The Religious Beliefs of America’s Founders: Reason, Revelation and Revolution". His explanation of what he calls the "theistic rationalism" of the key founders addresses some of the assertions made in this thread.

The interview is available in written and audio format at this link:

http://www.albertmohler.com/2012/09/...-gregg-frazer/
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Old 03-13-2017, 03:12 PM   #87
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I've been trying to dig up an interview that I heard a few years ago and I finally found it. This is a very interesting interview on the subject of what America's founders believed.

The interview was conducted by Dr. Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. The interviewee is Dr. Gregg Frazer, who has studied this topic extensively and who did his doctoral dissertation on it. He later published the book "The Religious Beliefs of America’s Founders: Reason, Revelation and Revolution". His explanation of what he calls the "theistic rationalism" of the key founders addresses some of the assertions made in this thread.

The interview is available in written and audio format at this link:

http://www.albertmohler.com/2012/09/...-gregg-frazer/
What are the Assertions to which you are referring?
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Old 03-13-2017, 03:31 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Vermin93 View Post
I've been trying to dig up an interview that I heard a few years ago and I finally found it. This is a very interesting interview on the subject of what America's founders believed.

The interview was conducted by Dr. Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. The interviewee is Dr. Gregg Frazer, who has studied this topic extensively and who did his doctoral dissertation on it. He later published the book "The Religious Beliefs of America’s Founders: Reason, Revelation and Revolution". His explanation of what he calls the "theistic rationalism" of the key founders addresses some of the assertions made in this thread.

The interview is available in written and audio format at this link:

http://www.albertmohler.com/2012/09/...-gregg-frazer/
This was really good interview. Really not overly new to me but from a 'religious and scholarly' viewpoint it is incredibly hard to discount. Interesting statement during summary (loosely summarized): "Over generous claims of religious beliefs of some founding fathers is doing a disservice to the founding of this nation and what is a Christian!"
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Old 03-13-2017, 03:45 PM   #89
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https://wallbuilders.com/franklins-a...-convention-2/
https://wallbuilders.com/july-4th-prayer/

This country was not created as a Christian nation..it was created by a great faith in the creator

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Old 03-13-2017, 04:06 PM   #90
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https://wallbuilders.com/franklins-a...-convention-2/
https://wallbuilders.com/july-4th-prayer/

This country was not created as a Christian nation..it was created by a great faith in the creator
THAT is a very good way to put it! I will use that in the future... I am not one to push one ideology or religious group or denomination over another, but I do believe our nation was founded on God-given principles that pre-date any gubment. Our founding fathers just put them on paper for the rest of the world to see/read and understand who we are as a people... It's we who are now so afraid of offending or being offended because of political correctness who have distorted the intentions of those founding fathers and their Godly principles that they outlined for us all to live by...
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Old 03-13-2017, 04:47 PM   #91
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This country was not created as a Christian nation..it was created by a great faith in the creator
Indeed.

Frazer: Yeah; and, by the way, let me just say, one of the things that’s critical to note here as well is that I don’t make any claims concerning the founding fathers in general. I don’t think you can make any claims about what the founding fathers believed or the religion of the founding fathers in general because they were, just like people today, they were individuals who disagreed in a lot of ways. They didn’t share all the same beliefs; they held a diverse set of beliefs in various areas, so what I focus on is eight key individuals who I refer to as the key founders. That is, those who are most responsible for the two founding documents: the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. And John Adams is, of course, a key figure here because he was one of the three most responsible for the Declaration of Independence and, obviously, the second president of the United States, and also in other positions: vice president, ambassador to Europe and so forth. John Adams, I argue, is sort of the quintessential theistic rationalist. That is, he wrote the most about theology of any of the key founders and studied the most. He read any and all theology that he could find around the world and he wrote the most about it and revealed his own views the most, and it’s really quite shocking what he came up with. He fundamentally denied basically all the fundamental tenants of the faith. He was raised in a Calvinist community; although, and again this is where denominational affiliations can get you in trouble, his church was listed as Congregationalist and they kept that name, but the church turned Unitarian when he was a young man, and so just the label Congregationalist can get you sort of off-track. But he denied the deity of Christ; he denied the Trinity; he denied the atonement. He actually said what I think is the most striking statement of all the things that I’ve found in all of my study, which was in his explaining his opposition to the Trinity, he actually said that if he were standing on Mount Sinai with Moses, where God gives revelation, and God Himself told him that the Trinity was true, he said he wouldn’t believe it.

Mohler: You look at a statement like that and you think Thomas Payne; you don’t think John Adams.

Frazer: Right. He referred to the deity of Christ and the atonement as absurdities, talked about the fabrication of the Christian Trinity. He talked about the incarnation and said it has been the source of almost all the corruptions of Christianity—the belief in an eternal self-existent, omnipresent, omniscient Author of this stupendous universe suffering on a cross—says that that’s the source of most of the problems in Christianity. Speaking of the Bible, he said that philosophy is the original revelation of the Creator to His creature, and no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it, so philosophy trumps the Bible.

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Old 03-13-2017, 04:54 PM   #92
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A secular rebuttal to the evangelical version you linked.

https://www.au.org/church-state/febr...ufactured-myth
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Old 03-13-2017, 05:51 PM   #93
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I've been trying to dig up an interview that I heard a few years ago and I finally found it. This is a very interesting interview on the subject of what America's founders believed.



The interview was conducted by Dr. Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. The interviewee is Dr. Gregg Frazer, who has studied this topic extensively and who did his doctoral dissertation on it. He later published the book "The Religious Beliefs of America’s Founders: Reason, Revelation and Revolution". His explanation of what he calls the "theistic rationalism" of the key founders addresses some of the assertions made in this thread.



The interview is available in written and audio format at this link:



http://www.albertmohler.com/2012/09/...-gregg-frazer/


Wow, very interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing.


That describes our founding fathers more of moralists than theists.

And without them believing in hell, they would not fit the definition of Christian today.

and for them the critical element in religion was morality. And this is part of where the left is wrong with their wall of separation notion and the idea that the founders wanted to keep religion out of public life. Quite the contrary, what they had to struggle with was the fact that they were creating society; they were creating a republic, a free society, without the iron fist of the government controlling people. And so the question they then had to deal with was, “How do you control such people? How do you get them to behave?” And their answer was that you get them to behave, you control them, through morality. And where do you get morality? You get it through religion. So they did not want to divorce or separate religion from public life; rather, they believe that religion was a necessary support of public life, as Washington and Adams and others said quite frequently, by the way. So they believed that morality was indispensible for a free society and that religion was the best source for morality, and so this wall of separation idea that the left has come up with is simply not the view of the founders. And so, back to their view of God, they again, borrowing notions of Christianity, they then threw out what they thought was irrational of the notions of God and their real focus concerning the attributes of God was on benevolence. That was the fundamental attribute that they believed of God. That’s what their reason told them that if there is a God and He created people, His primary motivation, His primary attribute would be benevolence—to be kind and good to those people. And, therefore, they jettisoned whatever beliefs they found to be irrational in light of the benevolence of God; things such as, for example, eternal hell. They didn’t believe in eternal hell because they thought that was irrational that God—as many people struggle with today—that God would create man only to confine him to hell. And so they believed in a temporary punishment after death, but that eventually everyone would end in heaven.

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Old 03-13-2017, 06:06 PM   #94
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Once religion enters this post......it is over!

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We're heading that way
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:51 PM   #95
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We're heading that way
I dont think this discussion is headed that way. only reason i posted anything about religion as s because someone else took a little dig at Christianity.
Several folks love to take little digs at Christianity and i guess expect the christians to simply put up with it.
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:35 PM   #96
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I dont think this discussion is headed that way. only reason i posted anything about religion as s because someone else took a little dig at Christianity.
Several folks love to take little digs at Christianity and i guess expect the christians to simply put up with it.


Would you agree that freedom of religion, also requires freedom from religion?
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:41 PM   #97
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our social and moral philosophies are deeply intertwined with our political parties.

And I understand what you say about conservative and a liberal libertarians, but

As a conservative libertarian how do you reconcile the libertarians party stance on abortion and same-sex marriage?


You agree to disagree but at least it's not the sickness of being a liberal.


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Old 03-13-2017, 09:45 PM   #98
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Would you agree that freedom of religion, also requires freedom from religion?
In what respect?
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:50 PM   #99
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In what respect?


As a Christian, you don't want to have to be exposed to Muslim prayers, do you?

In other words you want freedom from others religions, so that you can have freedom of your religion.


In the same way an atheist might not want to be exposed to anyone's religion; muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian or Muslim
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:51 PM   #100
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You agree to disagree but at least it's not the sickness of being a liberal.


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So you disagree with the party platform, but call yourself libertarian anyway?
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