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Old 03-09-2017, 07:19 AM   #1
XBowHunter
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Default Libertarians & Conservatives

What are the differences?

They both claim to want small government.

They both claim to want less government intervention.

They both would like a fiscally responsible government. Or at least that's what they both say, in reality we don't have a fiscally responsible government.


For me, that is where most common beliefs end and and differences begin.

Libertarians are really for a less intrusive, smaller government.

This includes social issues. For example same sex marriage & abortion:

From LP.ORG





So for me, being a libertarian truly means a less intrusive government and smaller government. Personal freedoms and responsibilities.


Thoughts?
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:47 AM   #2
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Once religion enters this post......it is over!

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Old 03-09-2017, 07:54 AM   #3
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Think of it this way


Neither side of left or right wants to believe they creep into the authoritarian quadrant, but any time legislation imposes on the personal freedom of the citizen, that hammer and sickle gets a little closer.

Regarding yesterday's hoopla on libertarianism the difference on social issues is that libertarianism is hands off and liberalism is imposed.

Also notice that the libertarian quadrant extends left and right but not to the extent that it gets into wacknuts territory. Far right and far left should actually be included in the authoritarian block since those folks are unwilling to consider a government that would even entertain the thought of something different than imposing that particular agenda.

If you averaged the plot of all the issues on the chart I would be right around the tablets in the Statue of Liberty's hand.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:11 AM   #4
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Libertarianism= Political Philosophy
Conservatism and Liberalism = Social/Moral Philosophy

They are not mutually exclusive. There are Conservative Libertarians and there are Liberal Libertarians.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:16 AM   #5
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Is it too early for popcorn?

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Old 03-09-2017, 08:21 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by J Sweet View Post
Libertarianism= Political Philosophy

Conservatism and Liberalism = Social/Moral Philosophy



They are not mutually exclusive. There are Conservative Libertarians and there are Liberal Libertarians.

our social and moral philosophies are deeply intertwined with our political parties.

And I understand what you say about conservative and a liberal libertarians, but

As a conservative libertarian how do you reconcile the libertarians party stance on abortion and same-sex marriage?
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:27 AM   #7
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Let me also add, the Libertarian party is a political party with lots of ideals that are not shared by most Conservative Libertarians as they are Liberal Libertarians, or as on txpitdogs chart they are on the very left side of the statue.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:29 AM   #8
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Once religion enters this post......it is over!

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Agreed but you can't answer his question without it. Either way I am not playing along he already knows the answer.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:38 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by XBowHunter View Post
our social and moral philosophies are deeply intertwined with our political parties.

And I understand what you say about conservative and a liberal libertarians, but

As a conservative libertarian how do you reconcile the libertarians party stance on abortion and same-sex marriage?
The party doesn't really address it. Its really just a cop out for abortion, saying both sides have good arguments and generally we don't like govt interference. Well guess what, abortion works solely on govt interference in the form of Roe v Wade. As a conservative Libertarian I see it as a states rights issue. Its not the federal govts business. If the majority of the people in a certain state say it should be illegal than in a democratic society it should be. In a state where the majority think it should be legal than it should be legal there. Live in which state you choose to, another casualty of Roe v Wade besides the children being killed is that the Bill of Rights was attacked. The 10th amendment was squashed with that ruling.




Same sex marriage is easy. It should be allowed 100 percent, no liberty given to one group should ever be denied to another. What someone else wishes to do that doesn't affect my liberties is none of my business and it certainly isn't the governments business.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:58 AM   #10
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The party doesn't really address it. Its really just a cop out for abortion, saying both sides have good arguments and generally we don't like govt interference. Well guess what, abortion works solely on govt interference in the form of Roe v Wade. As a conservative Libertarian I see it as a states rights issue. Its not the federal govts business. If the majority of the people in a certain state say it should be illegal than in a democratic society it should be. In a state where the majority think it should be legal than it should be legal there. Live in which state you choose to, another casualty of Roe v Wade besides the children being killed is that the Bill of Rights was attacked. The 10th amendment was squashed with that ruling.









Same sex marriage is easy. It should be allowed 100 percent, no liberty given to one group should ever be denied to another. What someone else wishes to do that doesn't affect my liberties is none of my business and it certainly isn't the governments business.


With your plan of states rights we no longer would be the united states. Some very hot issues must be addressed by the federal government unfortunately.

I mean, your states rights issue can be taken right down to the municipality level. Why not designate abortion to the cities?


The official Libertarian party platform is it's not the governments business at any level, sorry.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:59 AM   #11
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Is it too early for popcorn?

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Never, lol
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:01 AM   #12
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The Libertarian party is also against the death penalty

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Old 03-09-2017, 09:08 AM   #13
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With your plan of states rights we no longer would be the united states. Some very hot issues must be addressed by the federal government unfortunately.

States rights are outlined in the Bill of Rights specifically the 10th amendment to the constitution. I have no idea how you are getting to that by following the constitution of the US we wouldn't be the US.
I mean, your states rights issue can be taken right down to the municipality level. Why not designate abortion to the cities?

No they cannot, all municipalities/parishes/counties/cities derive their authority from the State govt, they operate under state law. They on their own can only enact "ordinances" not laws. When someone says states rights that is just what they are saying, the states as in the states that make up the United States of America, there are 50 of them.



The official Libertarian party platform is it's not the governments business at any level, sorry.

So then repeal Roe v Wade if it wasn't the govts business and let the people in each state decide what they want to do. Its called personal freedom.


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Old 03-09-2017, 09:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Sweet View Post
The party doesn't really address it. Its really just a cop out for abortion, saying both sides have good arguments and generally we don't like govt interference. Well guess what, abortion works solely on govt interference in the form of Roe v Wade. As a conservative Libertarian I see it as a states rights issue. Its not the federal govts business. If the majority of the people in a certain state say it should be illegal than in a democratic society it should be. In a state where the majority think it should be legal than it should be legal there. Live in which state you choose to, another casualty of Roe v Wade besides the children being killed is that the Bill of Rights was attacked. The 10th amendment was squashed with that ruling.




Same sex marriage is easy. It should be allowed 100 percent, no liberty given to one group should ever be denied to another. What someone else wishes to do that doesn't affect my liberties is none of my business and it certainly isn't the governments business.
Dumping an issue like abortion to "states rights" is a cop out. It's better than federal control but moral issues like this should not be legislated at all. Morality is an individual choice unless the issue infringes on another's rights. Obviously murder infringes on the victims right to life and if a fetus has rights, abortion is murder. Since science cannot answer the question of when a fetus becomes a person with rights, abortion must default to a moral decision made by the two individuals who created the fetus - not a government at any level.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:18 AM   #15
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The Libertarian party is also against the death penalty



I think we can all agree on 1.9 though!
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:19 AM   #16
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Dumping an issue like abortion to "states rights" is a cop out. It's better than federal control but moral issues like this should not be legislated at all. Morality is an individual choice unless the issue infringes on another's rights. Obviously murder infringes on the victims right to life and if a fetus has rights, abortion is murder. Since science cannot answer the question of when a fetus becomes a person with rights, abortion must default to a moral decision made by the two individuals who created the fetus - not a government at any level.
What other amendments to the US Constitution are cop outs? The first? Second?


This is my stance in bold.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:28 AM   #17
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Libertarianism is a great concept in philosophy, just like communism is. And just like communism it ignores personal desire which precipitates to greed. The issue with libertarianism is that it expects all individuals to make the right choice, and in the event the wrong choice is made they live with the consequences.

The issue with this, and where libertarianism fails in reality is that personal choices have societal consequences and eventually become a burden to society. This requires governments to intervene on some level and to varying degrees.

For instance, since abortion was brought up. I do not agree with abortion from moral perspective. However, its not my choice and I don't have to face the consequence of the decision of another human being. But, when that human being cannot afford their abortion it leave the state with 2 decisions. A) partially or completely fund the abortion, or B) partially or completely fund the rearing of the unwanted child. You see the impasse we are at in the real world when policies are left solely to the individual to make the "right" choice.

So the reality is that government is required by default to have some intervention. I believe conservatives understand this, and have a desire to minimize the states role.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:33 AM   #18
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Libertarianism is a great concept in philosophy, just like communism is. And just like communism it ignores personal desire which precipitates to greed. The issue with libertarianism is that it expects all individuals to make the right choice, and in the event the wrong choice is made they live with the consequences.

The issue with this, and where libertarianism fails in reality is that personal choices have societal consequences and eventually become a burden to society. This requires governments to intervene on some level and to varying degrees.

So, because not everyone will make the right choice, the government should take the choice away? Hmmm, where have I heard that before...



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Old 03-09-2017, 09:36 AM   #19
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So, because not everyone will make the right choice, the government should take the choice away? Hmmm, where have I heard that before...



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Old 03-09-2017, 09:48 AM   #20
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So, because not everyone will make the right choice, the government should take the choice away? Hmmm, where have I heard that before...



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I didn't say government should take the choice away. I said government has a choice to make, A or B.

You should read the entirety of a post before responding.... oh wait, you just quoted and ignored the rest of the post...
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:16 AM   #21
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If we consider 1.9 to be important, why do so many people get upset that a private property owner (business owner) does not want you to carry a weapon openly or concealed on their private property.
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:24 AM   #22
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"Safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils... Go back to sleep"



I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and all your demons.

I'll be the one to protect you from a will to survive and a voice of reason.

I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and your choices, son.

They're one in the same.

I must isolate you.

Isolate and save you from yourself.

Sleep.

Sleep.

Sleep.

. Maynard speaketh the truth
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:26 AM   #23
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Dumping an issue like abortion to "states rights" is a cop out. It's better than federal control but moral issues like this should not be legislated at all. Morality is an individual choice unless the issue infringes on another's rights. Obviously murder infringes on the victims right to life and if a fetus has rights, abortion is murder. Since science cannot answer the question of when a fetus becomes a person with rights, abortion must default to a moral decision made by the two individuals who created the fetus - not a government at any level.


Agreed
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:27 AM   #24
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I think we can all agree on 1.9 though!


Ok
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:27 AM   #25
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I didn't say government should take the choice away. I said government has a choice to make, A or B.

You should read the entirety of a post before responding.... oh wait, you just quoted and ignored the rest of the post...

I read it but your point was made in the first section. It sounds like you believe that it is the role of the government to eliminate personal freedom when that government decides the people are not capable of making the choice it has determined to be "right". That ain't conservative, that's due south on the chart.
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:32 AM   #26
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I read it but your point was made in the first section. It sounds like you believe that it is the role of the government to eliminate personal freedom when that government decides the people are not capable of making the choice it has determined to be "right". That ain't conservative, that's due south on the chart.


Thank you, that is where conservatism strays for me.
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:02 AM   #27
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As someone who has a deep interest in political philosophy, I had a long (and ultimately boring) response typed out but I decided to spare everyone and just pass along a few resources I have found helpful when studying libertarianism.
The first is the Cato Institute www.Cato.org - long the vanguard of intellectual libertarian thought. The other is Reason magazine. www.Reason.com

I go to both of these sites to read opinions from that end of the political spectrum regarding events of the day. Note that I am talking about "small l " libertarianism - the philosophy, not the political party. The best description of the Libertarian Party is when one of their leaders said - "our party is a big tent - but it's a big circus tent"
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Old 03-09-2017, 11:42 AM   #28
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What other amendments to the US Constitution are cop outs? The first? Second?


This is my stance in bold.
I don't understand what you are saying wrt constitutional amendments and cop-outs. Not one amendment deals with a moral issue.

Oftentimes people suggest an issue should be decided by the state's simply because they believe that leaving it to individuals wouldn't have enough support in Congress to make it happen. Leaving it to the states becomes the practical alternative but that doesn't make it the best alternative.

I too am opposed to abortion but since I know that I cannot know when life actually begins, I respect the belief that some hold which says life legally begins at birth.
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Old 03-09-2017, 12:24 PM   #29
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Note that I am talking about "small l " libertarianism - the philosophy, not the political party.


How do you see the philosophy differently than the political party?
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Old 03-09-2017, 12:27 PM   #30
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I don't understand what you are saying wrt constitutional amendments and cop-outs. Not one amendment deals with a moral issue.

Oftentimes people suggest an issue should be decided by the state's simply because they believe that leaving it to individuals wouldn't have enough support in Congress to make it happen. Leaving it to the states becomes the practical alternative but that doesn't make it the best alternative.

I too am opposed to abortion but since I know that I cannot know when life actually begins, I respect the belief that some hold which says life legally begins at birth.
In reference to you stating that the states rights argument as a cop out. States rights are expressly guaranteed in the Bill of Rights under the 10th amendment. I don't understand how its a cop out.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"
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Old 03-09-2017, 12:39 PM   #31
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I am a conservative that is FOR abortion and same sex marriage. I agree with a lot more than I disagree with. No party is 100% spot on to any ones given beliefs.
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:10 PM   #32
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I read it but your point was made in the first section. It sounds like you believe that it is the role of the government to eliminate personal freedom when that government decides the people are not capable of making the choice it has determined to be "right". That ain't conservative, that's due south on the chart.
No, i clearly didn't state or imply that it is gov'ts role to eliminate personal freedoms.

But when the totality of those "personal choices" becomes a burden on society what choice is gov't left with?
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:28 PM   #33
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But when the totality of those "personal choices" becomes a burden on society what choice is gov't left with?

And that statement right there, dang near verbatim, is the root of the left's justification for wanting to strike the 2nd Amendment from the Constitution. Might as well take the 4th while you're at it as a BOGOF deal.
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:51 PM   #34
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No, i clearly didn't state or imply that it is gov'ts role to eliminate personal freedoms.

But when the totality of those "personal choices" becomes a burden on society what choice is gov't left with?
Stop allowing it be a burden, ie stop entitlements. Once the person who created the "burden" has to take personal responsibility for it they will begin to make smarter decisions.

Govt. is so good at making the argument that there is a cost to a social issue and the only reason there is a cost is because the Govt created one.
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Old 03-09-2017, 02:49 PM   #35
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My take is that we have allowed the gubment to claim Biblical terms for use in gubment laws and philosophy, and therein lies the big problem (for me personally at least). Some, even many, maybe most will disagree with me but my belief is that the term "marriage" is a God-given law and He clearly describes it in His Word as the union of one man and one woman, and the two when joined by Holy Matrimony become one flesh, inseparable in His eyes until at death they separate. The other big term that the gubment has claimed as its own that is a Biblical principle and defining principle is "life" itself. When as God has designed it an egg and a male spern are conjoined, that is the very conception of life and that fertilized mass is indeed a person with a soul that will live on for all eternity, a child of God.

These two issues alone would preclude and exclude me from ever joining with ANY group whether political or otherwise that does not support this or believe this as God's Law.

Please, I don't post this to start an argument or anything. It is what I believe, and I further believe that one cannot call themselves Christian if they believe otherwise.

XBowhunter, you posted the other day that you and I have a lot in common with respect to our beliefs, and this right here is the chasm that separates you and me. We have little to nothing in common if you are not a believer in God and in his Son as your savior. I don't mean that in a mean or disrespectful way at all. It is however my belief and I am forever given to that belief until the Lord calls me home.

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Old 03-09-2017, 03:25 PM   #36
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SS, I respect your beliefs and share some of them. But I don't want my government to be involved in my religious beliefs. I don't want them picking or choosing which religious beliefs to legislate (Christian or otherwise). Government should stay out of the religious bidness.
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Old 03-09-2017, 03:46 PM   #37
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SS, I respect your beliefs and share some of them. But I don't want my government to be involved in my religious beliefs. I don't want them picking or choosing which religious beliefs to legislate (Christian or otherwise). Government should stay out of the religious bidness.
Yessir and in general, I share that philosophy except that our gubment when founded and formed was done so with a Christian perspective. I happen to believe they were right in their founding this Great Nation and by using God's Word as a guide and through prayerful consideration, wrote our Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of the United States and Bill of Rights. For this reason, I personally believe that God has blessed this Great Nation and continues to do so. However we are getting pretty close to a point where He well could remove His blessing from it. When that happens, it will be clearly evident and this Great Nation will fail and cease to be. The methodology and philosophies are there and our complacency are allowing it to get closer and closer, dangerously closer.

We are clearly told in God's Word that there is a just and right place for the governance of His people, but when government and God's Word collide, there is absolutely no choice for His people but to follow God's word. Now that sounds a lot like what the jihadi's may say as well except for the fact that Almighty God is The God of Peace and will never lead His People to destruction unless they turn away from Him. It is His desire that none be lost, and it is up to us who are believers and followers of His Son Jesus Christ to give the Word to all we can so that they may not perish. That is my sole motivation and responsibility outside of being a good steward of all He provides me while on the green side of the grass.
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Old 03-09-2017, 03:54 PM   #38
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I hear ya, but I don't share your belief in regards to religion in government. What happens when the next Reality Show Star happens to be a jihadist instead of a real estate mogul.....and our low information voting brothers and sisters elect him to a high political office? I'd just as soon those two very important issues be kept separate.
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Old 03-09-2017, 03:59 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by XBowHunter View Post
How do you see the philosophy differently than the political party?
The philosphy of libertarianism has many strains, some contradictory and far too diverse to fit on a party platform. There are left wing libertarians and right wing libertarians, some are pro life but most are pro choice, many are for open borders. All are for small government but some go as far as to say the only role of government is national defense and to protect individual rights. Some are mainstream guys like the Koch brothers or Rand Paul - (who is a Republican out of political necessity but holds largely libertarian views.) Many believe the government has no responsibility for the welfare of it's citizens other than to protect rights. eg: as Richard Weaver put it in his book "only individuals exist, therefore there is no such thing as the common good". For some it devolves into a type of social Darwinism - "every man for himself - let the weak get with the program or die off."

Many "small l" libertarians see the Libertarian Party as an ineffective way to advance these values and is basically a part of the same overall political system they deplore.

Murray Rothbard has probably had more influence than anyone in the modern libertarian movement. He has written lots of books but I found this one to be the most concise and readable:

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...=138MAZQX5AJJ5
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Old 03-09-2017, 04:57 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by SaltwaterSlick View Post
My take is that we have allowed the gubment to claim Biblical terms for use in gubment laws and philosophy, and therein lies the big problem (for me personally at least). Some, even many, maybe most will disagree with me but my belief is that the term "marriage" is a God-given law and He clearly describes it in His Word as the union of one man and one woman, and the two when joined by Holy Matrimony become one flesh, inseparable in His eyes until at death they separate. The other big term that the gubment has claimed as its own that is a Biblical principle and defining principle is "life" itself. When as God has designed it an egg and a male spern are conjoined, that is the very conception of life and that fertilized mass is indeed a person with a soul that will live on for all eternity, a child of God.

These two issues alone would preclude and exclude me from ever joining with ANY group whether political or otherwise that does not support this or believe this as God's Law.

Please, I don't post this to start an argument or anything. It is what I believe, and I further believe that one cannot call themselves Christian if they believe otherwise.

XBowhunter, you posted the other day that you and I have a lot in common with respect to our beliefs, and this right here is the chasm that separates you and me. We have little to nothing in common if you are not a believer in God and in his Son as your savior. I don't mean that in a mean or disrespectful way at all. It is however my belief and I am forever given to that belief until the Lord calls me home.


I am saved
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Old 03-09-2017, 04:58 PM   #41
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SS, I respect your beliefs and share some of them. But I don't want my government to be involved in my religious beliefs. I don't want them picking or choosing which religious beliefs to legislate (Christian or otherwise). Government should stay out of the religious bidness.


1000% agree !!!
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:02 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by jerp View Post
The philosphy of libertarianism has many strains, some contradictory and far too diverse to fit on a party platform. There are left wing libertarians and right wing libertarians, some are pro life but most are pro choice, many are for open borders. All are for small government but some go as far as to say the only role of government is national defense and to protect individual rights. Some are mainstream guys like the Koch brothers or Rand Paul - (who is a Republican out of political necessity but holds largely libertarian views.) Many believe the government has no responsibility for the welfare of it's citizens other than to protect rights. eg: as Richard Weaver put it in his book "only individuals exist, therefore there is no such thing as the common good". For some it devolves into a type of social Darwinism - "every man for himself - let the weak get with the program or die off."



Many "small l" libertarians see the Libertarian Party as an ineffective way to advance these values and is basically a part of the same overall political system they deplore.



Murray Rothbard has probably had more influence than anyone in the modern libertarian movement. He has written lots of books but I found this one to be the most concise and readable:



https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...=138MAZQX5AJJ5


Thanks for your input

I added the book to my Amazon cart

Help me understand what you mean by double "small l" libertarians
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:07 PM   #43
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There are so many different labels within each party.

Southern Dem
JFK Dem
Left Dem
Radical
Eco
Conservative Dem
Central Dem
Union Dem
......


Bible belt rep
Tea Party Rep
Right Wing Rep
Liberal Rep
Moderate Rep
Reagan Rep
......
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:33 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by XBowHunter View Post
I am saved
Thank you sir for telling me.

Is it a correct assumption that you believe in the sanctity of life and that marriage is between one man and one woman?

Thanks again for sharing.
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:41 PM   #45
XBowHunter
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Originally Posted by SaltwaterSlick View Post
Thank you sir for telling me.



Is it a correct assumption that you believe in the sanctity of life and that marriage is between one man and one woman?



Thanks again for sharing.


Those are my personal beliefs. however I don't believe the country should be run on my personal beliefs.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:25 PM   #46
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I don't think about it much - or often. Although I do pay close attention to political / world affairs, contradictory though that may sound. I've made the statement here a time or two, but please allow me to repeat myself: I'm 70 years old, and life's experiences have molded me into who I am. For better or for worse.
I have both some conservative and liberal philosophies / beliefs / ideals. Better and more simply said; a way of living.

I'll touch on some inarguably important issues and expound a little on others - leaving religion till last:

Through the evolution process, I'm fiscally conservative. If I don't have the money, I don't buy it - I don't take the trip or indulge in the adventure. Ergo, I stay in the black. Simple arithmetic - government(s), just how hard is that?

The Constitution is remarkably clear, and goes directly to the point. All Amendments. I have absolutely no argument with with any Article. And if I happened to; I would promptly get over it. Rules of Law: read the meters and don't fight the system. But still, somehow some **** gets thrown into the game. I'll address a few things that weren't specifically covered in the Perfect Document:

The death penalty: I'm adamantly opposed. I personally have no problem with killing mothereffers that need to be killed. But the system is imperfect and genuinely innocent people have been executed. If indeed they did it, I can think of no worse punishment than life in prison. And if they didn't, they didn't and hopefully they will be exonerated before it's too late. And just how much sense does it make to kill somebody to show them that killing is wrong?

Abortion: I am personally opposed, through evolution. I once believed that it was all okay. I changed my mind. I have a beautiful, wonderful, precious 23 year old grand daughter. My daughter got pregnant at the age of 16. I suggested abortion, but I didn't push it. She said I can't Dad. Had my daughter had an abortion, there would be no Lauren Marie. Having said that; I'm pro-choice, the decision rests with the woman and the man and God. Period. Government(s), stay out of the way.

Same sex marriage: I do believe that genders should marry opposites. But I don't really care as long as they don't do it in the street and scare the horses. As with above; that's God's business and I'm unqualified to arbitrate the matter. I am not the slightest bit homophobic. (Chuckle) with women, perversely, I find it kinda hot and most men do too, although they won't say it out loud.

Drugs: Decriminalize, regulate and tax. Alcohol and tobacco kill more people and kill more people every day that illegal drugs do. Prohibition is the only Amendment that has been done away with; because it was a dismal failure. Prohibition was both the mother and the father of organized crime. Certainly some drugs are bad and will kill you, but people will do them anyway. I do drink in moderation and yessir, I do smoke a little dope from time to time. In moderation. Everyone that enjoys a drink is not necessarily a drunk, nor is the occasional toker a pothead. I will use myself for an example: Neither have disaffected my life in any manner. I've never been out of work, my income is in six figures,my credit score is somewhere between 825 and 840 and I still enjoy remarkable health at the age of 70. An open mind is an open mind is an open mind. I suggest those with closed minds simply try it for a little while.

Social / assistance / welfare programs: I've been blessed with at least average intelligence, a few talents and a desire for fun and materials things - and most importantly, good health. Some are not so fortunate. I do believe that those of us that have blessed with such things should help out those that haven't. At least until they get back on their feet, after that, they're on their own. Some will have health / disability problems that will never go away. Compassion is not a weakness, it is a strength and I don't think that we should leave them in the sand to die.

Religion: I've already covered a few things that seem to be an issue with a lot of folks and I don't condemn nobody's line of thinking / beliefs / convictions. Once again,
God's job. I am Catholic by choice, raised Baptist. Us Catholics believe that we were all saved some 2000 years ago; when Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God died so all us mortals stated at Square One at birth. Baptism is a ritual, the child does not have to know what is going on; God, The Son and the Holy Spirit are clear on the concept. While attending classes to be a confirmed Catholic, Father Mike said: Take away the church laws and we all believe the road to Heaven leads through Jesus Christ, there ain't no other route. I have some disagreement the the church laws and I break them. I am am divorced (twice) and I do date when the mood hits and my checkbook balance suggests that I'm overdue to spend a little time with a pretty woman. Catholic Church law says otherwise, but I betcha God is forgiving. I can say that because, I don't lie to them or mislead them and the right amount of money is in the envelope, should that be the situation. Heck, when I feel that I'm way past due to take Communion, I go to an Episcopal mass; Episcopals don't let religion affect business or religion. The baptistry is a hot tub.

Liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, libertarian? I don't really know, nor I do I care very much. I have to be okay with whichever I am or I ain't because I really don't have a choice. Probably, I guess - closer to libertarian than anything else.

Thanks XBowHunter, and I admire you for sticking to your principles in the face of about 90% opposition in this particular venue.

Not proofed for spelling, punctuation, for repeating myself or anything else.


Bob Lee
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:43 PM   #47
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Mr. Bob Lee - I like your style brother.

M

Last edited by mikemorvan; 03-09-2017 at 09:23 PM..
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:24 PM   #48
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Bob Lee, I like your thinking.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:24 PM   #49
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Wow Bob, thanks for sharing. You have an interesting philosophy, I'll give you that. You are indeed broad-minded. I can't say that I'd agree with much of what you believe, but that is perfectly OK. Probably still be fun to share a real campfire with you sir. Thank you again for sharing.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:50 PM   #50
XBowHunter
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Originally Posted by boblee View Post
I don't think about it much - or often. Although I do pay close attention to political / world affairs, contradictory though that may sound. I've made the statement here a time or two, but please allow me to repeat myself: I'm 70 years old, and life's experiences have molded me into who I am. For better or for worse.

I have both some conservative and liberal philosophies / beliefs / ideals. Better and more simply said; a way of living.



I'll touch on some inarguably important issues and expound a little on others - leaving religion till last:



Through the evolution process, I'm fiscally conservative. If I don't have the money, I don't buy it - I don't take the trip or indulge in the adventure. Ergo, I stay in the black. Simple arithmetic - government(s), just how hard is that?



The Constitution is remarkably clear, and goes directly to the point. All Amendments. I have absolutely no argument with with any Article. And if I happened to; I would promptly get over it. Rules of Law: read the meters and don't fight the system. But still, somehow some **** gets thrown into the game. I'll address a few things that weren't specifically covered in the Perfect Document:



The death penalty: I'm adamantly opposed. I personally have no problem with killing mothereffers that need to be killed. But the system is imperfect and genuinely innocent people have been executed. If indeed they did it, I can think of no worse punishment than life in prison. And if they didn't, they didn't and hopefully they will be exonerated before it's too late. And just how much sense does it make to kill somebody to show them that killing is wrong?



Abortion: I am personally opposed, through evolution. I once believed that it was all okay. I changed my mind. I have a beautiful, wonderful, precious 23 year old grand daughter. My daughter got pregnant at the age of 16. I suggested abortion, but I didn't push it. She said I can't Dad. Had my daughter had an abortion, there would be no Lauren Marie. Having said that; I'm pro-choice, the decision rests with the woman and the man and God. Period. Government(s), stay out of the way.



Same sex marriage: I do believe that genders should marry opposites. But I don't really care as long as they don't do it in the street and scare the horses. As with above; that's God's business and I'm unqualified to arbitrate the matter. I am not the slightest bit homophobic. (Chuckle) with women, perversely, I find it kinda hot and most men do too, although they won't say it out loud.



Drugs: Decriminalize, regulate and tax. Alcohol and tobacco kill more people and kill more people every day that illegal drugs do. Prohibition is the only Amendment that has been done away with; because it was a dismal failure. Prohibition was both the mother and the father of organized crime. Certainly some drugs are bad and will kill you, but people will do them anyway. I do drink in moderation and yessir, I do smoke a little dope from time to time. In moderation. Everyone that enjoys a drink is not necessarily a drunk, nor is the occasional toker a pothead. I will use myself for an example: Neither have disaffected my life in any manner. I've never been out of work, my income is in six figures,my credit score is somewhere between 825 and 840 and I still enjoy remarkable health at the age of 70. An open mind is an open mind is an open mind. I suggest those with closed minds simply try it for a little while.



Social / assistance / welfare programs: I've been blessed with at least average intelligence, a few talents and a desire for fun and materials things - and most importantly, good health. Some are not so fortunate. I do believe that those of us that have blessed with such things should help out those that haven't. At least until they get back on their feet, after that, they're on their own. Some will have health / disability problems that will never go away. Compassion is not a weakness, it is a strength and I don't think that we should leave them in the sand to die.



Religion: I've already covered a few things that seem to be an issue with a lot of folks and I don't condemn nobody's line of thinking / beliefs / convictions. Once again,

God's job. I am Catholic by choice, raised Baptist. Us Catholics believe that we were all saved some 2000 years ago; when Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God died so all us mortals stated at Square One at birth. Baptism is a ritual, the child does not have to know what is going on; God, The Son and the Holy Spirit are clear on the concept. While attending classes to be a confirmed Catholic, Father Mike said: Take away the church laws and we all believe the road to Heaven leads through Jesus Christ, there ain't no other route. I have some disagreement the the church laws and I break them. I am am divorced (twice) and I do date when the mood hits and my checkbook balance suggests that I'm overdue to spend a little time with a pretty woman. Catholic Church law says otherwise, but I betcha God is forgiving. I can say that because, I don't lie to them or mislead them and the right amount of money is in the envelope, should that be the situation. Heck, when I feel that I'm way past due to take Communion, I go to an Episcopal mass; Episcopals don't let religion affect business or religion. The baptistry is a hot tub.



Liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, libertarian? I don't really know, nor I do I care very much. I have to be okay with whichever I am or I ain't because I really don't have a choice. Probably, I guess - closer to libertarian than anything else.



Thanks XBowHunter, and I admire you for sticking to your principles in the face of about 90% opposition in this particular venue.



Not proofed for spelling, punctuation, for repeating myself or anything else.





Bob Lee


Bob Lee,

I am not worthy. I wish I could express myself as eloquently as you do.


Well said sir
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