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Old 03-02-2017, 09:31 AM   #1
Trust
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Default Did I miss something in my WW II history regarding Hitler?

So, I consider myself something of a history buff and often discuss history with both of my boys who show a similar passion and can hold their own in a discussion on the subject.

Yesterday my 12 year old comes home and tells me he had an interesting conversation with a "not be named adult" at the school yesterday while having a group discussion on racism. The "not be named adult" proceeded to tell the group of boys Hitler was a great leader and good for his country until be got mixed in with the racist at the end of WWII.

Needless to say I was a little floored and asked him if he was sure the"not to be named adult" said Hitler and not Hillary or someone else. He said nope, Hilter and proceeded to tell the "not to be named" adult that was stupid and Hitler was a Nazi from the get go.

So, my question is did I miss something in regards to Hitler's being a great leader? The only thing I can think of is rallying his people behind a cause. Any other thoughts?

Also, would I be out of line send the said "not to be named adult" a copy of good WWII History Book and a copy of Mein Kempf with a note saying there is not greatness with this guy.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:36 AM   #2
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If murdering millions of innocent people and having your country bombed into oblivion and ultimately defeated by other nations is the sign of a great leader then I hope Trump is a terrible leader.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:37 AM   #3
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Mein Kempf was published in 1925, Hitler didn't gain power until 1930 or 1932. To say he wasn't a racist prior would be ignoring his own record of his beliefs.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:41 AM   #4
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I dont think you missed anything but apparently the Unnamed adult learned a lot of inaccurate history while in their higher education
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:43 AM   #5
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He was a great leader.

He just awful values and beliefs. Look how many people he motivated to do unspeakable things.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:45 AM   #6
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I would say that Hitler was an awesome leader. I would say the problem is that he had some terrible thoughts and carried out hideous actions against people. His ability to get people to follow him though, was incredible. The fact that he used his leadership for evil and wrong has nothing to do with his leadership abilities.

lead·er
ˈlēdər/Submit
noun
1.
the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country.
"the leader of a protest group"
synonyms: chief, head, principal; More
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:47 AM   #7
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One other thing I will add, prior to WWI, Hitler by all accounts was not racist. It's actually pretty widely agreed he wasn't. It was after his country laid down in WWI that he lost his mind, moved to Germany, and 3rd reich stuff started.

Maybe the adult said WWI, or maybe your child misheard? Just throwing it out there so you don't jump down someone's throat to find out it was just a misunderstanding.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:47 AM   #8
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If you were to say he was a great leader as in he was able to get pretty much the entire country to follow his will then yes was great at that. Problem is what he got them to do was evil so there really is no place in early education to even be discussing that he in any way was great. He might of been great at hopscotch as well but who cares.

He was great at being an evil leader and killing millions of innocent people.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trust View Post
So, I consider myself something of a history buff and often discuss history with both of my boys who show a similar passion and can hold their own in a discussion on the subject.

Yesterday my 12 year old comes home and tells me he had an interesting conversation with a "not be named adult" at the school yesterday while having a group discussion on racism. The "not be named adult" proceeded to tell the group of boys Hitler was a great leader and good for his country until be got mixed in with the racist at the end of WWII.

Needless to say I was a little floored and asked him if he was sure the"not to be named adult" said Hitler and not Hillary or someone else. He said nope, Hilter and proceeded to tell the "not to be named" adult that was stupid and Hitler was a Nazi from the get go.

So, my question is did I miss something in regards to Hitler's being a great leader? The only thing I can think of is rallying his people behind a cause. Any other thoughts?

Also, would I be out of line send the said "not to be named adult" a copy of good WWII History Book and a copy of Mein Kempf with a note saying there is not greatness with this guy.
I googled Hitlers early years
pretty much identified as a raciest in about 1909 going forward
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:49 AM   #10
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I too enjoy WWII history. I guess you have define "great leader" and "good for his country". Germany is better off post-war (many years post-war [including Cold War]). Millions of humans lost their lives to that man and his ideology.
Hardly the traits I look for in a leader.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:52 AM   #11
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Maybe she meant a "great painter"...which is up for debate
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:53 AM   #12
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Maybe she meant a "great painter"...which is up for debate
apparently he was not much good at that either but he did manage to make a modest living....off of Jewish business owners...go figure
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:53 AM   #13
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Hitler was a spawn of Satan, and one of the most evil men in the history of the world.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:57 AM   #14
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I had read an interesting article written by a Austrian citizen on how Hitler was able to take over their country without firing a shot. He simple led people to believe they would be much better off under Socialism. He promised many things free education, free food, better housing for free etc. then once he took control he began the slow destruction of the country my controlling what they read, mandatory service to the government etc. So in that regard yes he was a great leader just a very evil one.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:57 AM   #15
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Just based of the definition of leadership Hitler was problem one of the greatest leaders ever. There is no denying that he was able to take Germany from near ruins and turn them into one of the biggest superpowers the world has ever seen. You don't have to like his politics or his values but you can't deny what he was able to accomplish.

The same can be said of Putin. His is a thug but you can't discount his leadership. You have to respect that because if you don't and discount him you end up with a Hitler on your hands.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flywise View Post
I googled Hitlers early years
pretty much identified as a raciest in about 1909 going forward
Nah, he really wasn't until the end of WWI, when he claimed the Jews (Among other impure races) in his country were who caused Austria to lay down rather than fight when they hadn't lost yet, and their country had never been occupied.

Now his early years he was ****** off, but he was basically a gypsy, and broke. He was a failed painter, who sold his watercolors as that stock photo you get when you buy a picture frame. WWI was was saved him from poverty.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:59 AM   #17
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The unnamed adult sounds as smart as Obama's minion, Anita Dunn, White House Communications Director, who stated in an address to high school students that Chairman Mao Tse-tung was one of the two "philosophers" she most often turns to.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:00 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texan4ut View Post
I had read an interesting article written by a Austrian citizen on how Hitler was able to take over their country without firing a shot. He simple led people to believe they would be much better off under Socialism. He promised many things free education, free food, better housing for free etc. then once he took control he began the slow destruction of the country my controlling what they read, mandatory service to the government etc. So in that regard yes he was a great leader just a very evil one.
I think you mean Germany. He fled Austria because Gemany was more "pure".
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:01 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by 175gr7.62 View Post
Just based of the definition of leadership Hitler was problem one of the greatest leaders ever. There is no denying that he was able to take Germany from near ruins and turn them into one of the biggest superpowers the world has ever seen. You don't have to like his politics or his values but you can't deny what he was able to accomplish.

The same can be said of Putin. His is a thug but you can't discount his leadership. You have to respect that because if you don't and discount him you end up with a Hitler on your hands.
No denying he was a great leader, it is a requisite of all dictators, otherwise how would they accumulate so much power to begin with. The statement in question and factually documented as patently false is that he wasn't a racist from early on.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:02 AM   #20
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Never underestimate the power of a great SPEAKER. He would grab onto the podium and yell into the microphone in big rallies. The German people had not recovered after WWI and their country was in shambles. He was great at electrifying and arousing the German people into believing that he could make Germany the most powerful and richest country for the next 1000 years. He blamed the Allies after the Treaty of Versailles and it was easy to manipulate the German people at a very vulnerable time in their history. I would not say he was a great leader because he ruled and led with fear and intimidation. He would have his own generals shot if they were not loyal or disobeyed his orders. Remember, there were several attempts on his life. He was loony and heavily dependent on drugs--NOT A GREAT LEADER!!!
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:03 AM   #21
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I think you mean Germany. He fled Austria because Gemany was more "pure".
No he is correct, Austria was Hitler's 1st victory and it required no battle, only to stoke the embers of what remained of the alliance between Germany and Austria from WWI
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:06 AM   #22
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Some on these responses are exactly in line with my thinking such as he was a great leader in having people follow him blindly and technology advances related to the war effort.

But, I can not see how you would say he "fell in" with a racist crowd when Mein Kempf was written in 1925 and he was names Chancellor of Germany in '33 to garner completed power.

Needless to say I was floored and what the "not to be named adult" said about Hitler goes along other things said such as "interrogating children" and groups of kids gathered on the playground in groups of 5 of more will be "interrogated" and considered a gang.

Needless to say this is the "not to be named adults" 1st year and I don't see a 2nd year of employment happening, at least in our school district.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:13 AM   #23
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I don't think you "missed" anything but it is amazing what is not taught in our schools. Read the Rape of Nanking as one example. Maybe things have changed in the last 30 years but the Japanese / Chinese atrocities were nothing more than a footnote when I was in school. Horrible stuff
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:13 AM   #24
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No he is correct, Austria was Hitler's 1st victory and it required no battle, only to stoke the embers of what remained of the alliance between Germany and Austria from WWI
Ahh yeah, my bad, I misunderstood the original statement. You are correct.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:15 AM   #25
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Hitler had spread his beliefs of racial "purity" and in the superiority of what he called an Aryan "master race" from day one...

Hitler hated Jewish people for several reasons, foremost he blamed the Jews for the loss of WWI & the economic crisis that crippled Germany...

Hitler was a charismatic man who knew how to play to a crowd & could get people to follow him with his words. He was a great leader that rescued Germany, BUUUUUT...

Hitler was essentially a military tactic idiot.
He was a government person, and he was not fit to command any army.
When faced with a military campaign, he basically knew nothing of tactics, or what weapons would be successful in war (which is strange because he was a soldier in WWI).

Had he left his forces in the hands of his very capable generals, Hitler's Reich, and his genocidal goals might have come to fruition...

Basically Germany lost the war because of his military incompetence, and had the attempts on his life by his own generals been successful, then the war might have turned out differently...and quite possible world domination by the Germans...

Luckily for us he remained in place, and continued to make incompetent decisions time after time.
Many debate the out come had Germany (per Hitler) not attacked Russia..



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Old 03-02-2017, 10:16 AM   #26
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Hitler was a spawn of Satan, and one of the most evil men in the history of the world.
Not even close.

Edit: Sorry I thought your post said THE most evil man in history.

He was absolutely one of the most evil human beings ever to walk the earth.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:19 AM   #27
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Not even close.

Edit: Sorry I thought your post said THE most evil man in history.

He was absolutely one of the most evil human beings ever to walk the earth.


There are several evil men throughout history, but surely Hitler is top 5. I'm curious who you rank above him?

Ahhh........never mind. Just saw your edit
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by SoTxHunter View Post
Never underestimate the power of a great SPEAKER. He would grab onto the podium and yell into the microphone in big rallies. The German people had not recovered after WWI and their country was in shambles. He was great at electrifying and arousing the German people into believing that he could make Germany the most powerful and richest country for the next 1000 years. He blamed the Allies after the Treaty of Versailles and it was easy to manipulate the German people at a very vulnerable time in their history. I would not say he was a great leader because he ruled and led with fear and intimidation. He would have his own generals shot if they were not loyal or disobeyed his orders. Remember, there were several attempts on his life. He was loony and heavily dependent on drugs--NOT A GREAT LEADER!!!
The treaty of Versailles was what created the 2nd world war. German was paying massive reparations to France, and no one in Germany liked it. France boomed after WWI, while Germany suffered. Technically it was the Allies fault, because they crammed the treaty (Mainly France) down Germany's throat.

If they had used Woodrow Wilson's 14 point plan, Germany would have been far better off after WWI, and good chance WWII never happens.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:24 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by bdchorn View Post


There are several evil men throughout history, but surely Hitler is top 5. I'm curious who you rank above him?

Ahhh........never mind. Just saw your edit
I'd give him top 5. My book:

1. Alexander the Great
2. Alexander the Great's dad
3. Stalin
4. Hitler
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:27 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by texan4ut View Post
I had read an interesting article written by a Austrian citizen on how Hitler was able to take over their country without firing a shot. He simply led people to believe they would be much better off under Socialism. He promised many things free education, free food, better housing for free etc. then once he took control he began the slow destruction of the country my controlling what they read, mandatory service to the government etc. So in that regard yes he was a great leader just a very evil one.
DANG! This sounds a LOT like the Democrat Party! Sure glad Hitlery didn't win the presidency!

Last edited by SaltwaterSlick; 03-02-2017 at 10:29 AM.. Reason: accuracy correction :)
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:28 AM   #31
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As others have said, Hitler was a great leader with Terrible ideals and beliefs. The bigger issue I see is that this is absolutely not a discussion that should be had in lower level education. Most kids won't be able to differentiate between a good leader and a horrible person and will leave the class thinking that the history books are wrong about Hitler.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay C View Post
Not even close.

Edit: Sorry I thought your post said THE most evil man in history.

He was absolutely one of the most evil human beings ever to walk the earth.
So who's the most evil person?
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:39 AM   #32
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Quote:
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I'd give him top 5. My book:

1. Alexander the Great
2. Alexander the Great's dad
3. Stalin
4. Hitler
Whoa, I think Vlad and Genghis Khan need a mention. You know that a huge percentage of Asia still shares DNA because Khan took advantage of so many women?
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:40 AM   #33
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Hitler was maniacal and crazy as a s***house rat. IF you ever watched his speeches he would tremble and roll his eyes back in his head like a "touched" preacher. The German people were in just the right mood to accept his promise of redemption and rebuild.

I personally have zero respect for this mass murderer of millions of men, women, children, and babies. Zero.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:43 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by bdchorn View Post


There are several evil men throughout history, but surely Hitler is top 5. I'm curious who you rank above him?

Ahhh........never mind. Just saw your edit
Not sure how Hilter isn't #1....

1) Hitler
2) Stalin
3) Pol Pot
4) Ishii Shiro
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:45 AM   #35
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He was extremely successful because he was so charismatic. Some might confuse that with being a great leader.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:45 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Trust View Post
So, I consider myself something of a history buff and often discuss history with both of my boys who show a similar passion and can hold their own in a discussion on the subject.

Yesterday my 12 year old comes home and tells me he had an interesting conversation with a "not be named adult" at the school yesterday while having a group discussion on racism. The "not be named adult" proceeded to tell the group of boys Hitler was a great leader and good for his country until be got mixed in with the racist at the end of WWII.

Needless to say I was a little floored and asked him if he was sure the"not to be named adult" said Hitler and not Hillary or someone else. He said nope, Hilter and proceeded to tell the "not to be named" adult that was stupid and Hitler was a Nazi from the get go.

So, my question is did I miss something in regards to Hitler's being a great leader? The only thing I can think of is rallying his people behind a cause. Any other thoughts?

Also, would I be out of line send the said "not to be named adult" a copy of good WWII History Book and a copy of Mein Kempf with a note saying there is not greatness with this guy.
I can almost see what the "not to be named adult" could have been trying to say. Hitler was fantastic for Germany (rebuilding) for a short while but was always a racist and a terrible person. He was Time Magazine's "Man of the Year" in 1938. He didnt get "mixed in with racists", he was the racist. He was also crazy and got even worse in the end. He was commanding ghost regiments and divisions against the russians just before he died. He did all sorts of nasty and horrible things. A Harry Potter movie quote might explain (not sure which movie), when the headmaster is refering to the main bad guy (voldermet or something?) "He did great things, but they were terrible". The guy was never a good or decent human.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:46 AM   #37
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Also, Hitler was technically "a great leader" Took Germany from ruins and united the people, boosted economy, and became a super power in a short time. However his ego, mental instability, racist ideology, and twisted psyche only got worse as his power increased.

Then throw in horrible "friends" and advisors, him having anybody who disagreed with him taken out, and a shady Dr that had him on an unbelievable neverending cocktail of drugs. It snowballed into WW2 and all of the other despicable things he did.

Luckily he was an awful military strategist. If he had let his generals take over operations he may have taken over the world.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:50 AM   #38
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Hitler was not a great leader but a great speaker, which he practiced constantly. He didn't start becoming racist until the death of his mother who was being treated by there Jewish doctor. Hitler had failed at just about everything he did until after WWI. Germany was in bad shape and he managed to be in the right place at the right time. He basically became the spokesperson for the group he was spying on after standing up during one of there meetings. The people around Hitler where the leaders he was the preacher.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:56 AM   #39
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Germany was suffering from hyperinflation. It might be equivalent today of a loaf of bread costing $500. I heard there was a joke that a German was heading downtown in Berlin during that time with a wheelbarrow full of 2 million Reichsmarks. He was on the way to buy dinner for his family. He tripped and the 2 million German dollars spilled on the ground. A large crowd quickly moved in and there was a big brawl. The crowd suddenly left and the 2 million was still on the ground but the wheelbarrow was gone.

Hitler brought them out of that and economic stability to the country.

All it cost was 50,000,000 lives and almost 50 more years of the Cold War at the cost of trillions of dollars to the rest of the world. Quite the bargain for a great leader.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:04 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Bullseye07 View Post
As others have said, Hitler was a great leader with Terrible ideals and beliefs. The bigger issue I see is that this is absolutely not a discussion that should be had in lower level education. Most kids won't be able to differentiate between a good leader and a horrible person and will leave the class thinking that the history books are wrong about Hitler.




So who's the most evil person?
Not sure I can rank them as it is fairly subjective. If I had to, I would hoist Muhammad in the top spot of evil historical figures. I would also rank Mao and Stalin above Hitler. They have the blood of hundreds of millions more than Hitler on their hands.

There is even an argument to be made that Hitler wasn't the most evil within his ranks. Hitler's original plan was to ship German Jews back to the Middle East. He was convinced otherwise by his allies within the Muslim Brotherhood. The likes of Heydrich and Eichmann then constructed the Holocaust (with Hitler's blessing of course). Eichmann believed so strongly in the pure Germanic blood line that he continued the camps and murders after he was ordered to stop. If Hitler would not have been the leader at the time, Eichmann would probably be the name everyone associates with the Holocaust.

It is unfortunate that so little is taught about the Holocaust. It is a very in depth and interesting (although obviously very disturbing) historical topic.

Before anyone accuses me of defending Hitler that is not at all what I am doing. He was obviously a deeply evil human being. I just enjoy historical discussions.

To the OP, whoever told your child that should not be educating children.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:07 AM   #41
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Not sure how Hilter isn't #1....

1) Hitler
2) Stalin
3) Pol Pot
4) Ishii Shiro
This is a good list.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:13 AM   #42
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Whoa, I think Vlad and Genghis Khan need a mention. You know that a huge percentage of Asia still shares DNA because Khan took advantage of so many women?
I totally forgot Genghis Khan. Good call. He could be put at 1, 2, or 3.

I did actually. There is a theory about Khan that he had red hair and green eyes too, and was originally descended from western Europeans (Roman if I remember right). In fact, middle easterners you see with green eyes are considered most likely Khan descendants as well, or at least share Mongol blood.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:15 AM   #43
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Not sure how Hilter isn't #1....

1) Hitler
2) Stalin
3) Pol Pot
4) Ishii Shiro
Hitler body count is far less than any of the rest. Like 10's of millions less.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:16 AM   #44
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Would ( edit Margaret Sanger) get a place at the table of evil

Last edited by flywise; 03-02-2017 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Crazy Horse View Post
Not sure how Hilter isn't #1....

1) Hitler
2) Stalin
3) Pol Pot
4) Ishii Shiro
5) Cast of The View
added one.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:19 AM   #46
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added one.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:21 AM   #47
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If you want to rank, you really have to decide on if your basing off of Body count, or motive/ideology. Otherwise there will be zero consensus.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:23 AM   #48
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I totally forgot Genghis Khan. Good call. He could be put at 1, 2, or 3.

I did actually. There is a theory about Khan that he had red hair and green eyes too, and was originally descended from western Europeans (Roman if I remember right). In fact, middle easterners you see with green eyes are considered most likely Khan descendants as well, or at least share Mongol blood.
Yep. Fascinating to read about him.

I'm just amazed that the "older" ones did what they did. I mean they were on foot and horses, covering all of Europe and Asia. Modern era people like Hitler could get in a jet and fly across the country.

I think it was Khan also that wiped out so many people he changed the human populations carbon footprint for a long time period.

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Old 03-02-2017, 11:29 AM   #49
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I think Some of that is kinda true what the in named person Claims. Germany got the blame for WW1 and the whole world was letting Germany fail. He made Germany proud for a brief period. Some of his Generals were responsible for the worst crimes.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:32 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Crazy Horse View Post
Not sure how Hilter isn't #1....



1) Hitler

2) Stalin

3) Pol Pot

4) Ishii Shiro


The history of humankind is the history of conflict. I once heard that in a lecture and it stuck with me.

While all of those are truly atrocious, no single leader will equal Temujin (Genghis Khan) by the numbers. It is estimated that he is responsible for 40 million deaths. His campaigning changed the population of the planet, not just a country. It is said that one in 500 modern Chinese is a direct descendant of his. That is bananas when you think about it.

Timur Lenk (who I know very little about) is said to be responsible for 17-20 million deaths

All of WWII is estimated at 66 million dead

Stalin is credited with 20 million

Hitler 24 million dead




Back to the OP - if you want to show your kid a series of leaders that expanded an empire with minimal bloodshed, look at Persia. Sure there was conflict, but most folks found it more profitable to join up. Dan Carlin did a fantastic podcast on this called Kings of Kings.


"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices, have very few virtues" - Abraham Lincoln
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