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Old 05-04-2016, 08:42 PM   #151
TKK
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Nobody here wants to hear this BUT - this need to be put in perspective - all this discussion and energy spent over supplemental feed may be interesting but it is such a small part of what it takes to grow trophy deer on a low fence ranch. When put into context, genetics, habitat, management, and age are the real contributors to producing high end trophy bucks. Feed is such a small portion of the equation. In dry years it does have some impact - in wet years it truthfully is not the factor in horn growth. If you are selling feed or or believe it makes all the difference then fine - but the reality is no matter how good a feed is it really has a small overall impact on what a LF ranch will produce. Any legitimate biologist will tell you the same.

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Old 05-04-2016, 09:06 PM   #152
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Nobody here wants to hear this BUT - all this discussion and energy spent over supplemental feed may be interesting but it is such a small part of what it takes to grow trophy deer on a low fence ranch. When put into context, genetics, habitat, management, and age are the real contributors to producing high end trophy bucks. Feed is such a small portion of the equation. In dry years it does have some impact - in wet years it truthfully is not the factor in horn growth. If you are selling feed or or believe it makes all the difference then fine - but the reality is no matter how good a feed is it really has a small overall impact on what a LF ranch will produce. Any legitimate biologist will tell you the same.
I agree with your statment that many elements go into growing big deer, but will also add that high fenced ranches require the same elements. Sound management practices are very much required regardless of the fence height.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:09 PM   #153
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I agree with your statment that many elements go into growing big deer, but will also add that high fenced ranches require the same elements. Sound management practices are very much required regardless of the fence height.
Very true - I agree. I was referring more to breeding operations where there is no natural habitat - on a large HF ranch the same ingredients are what matter - you are totally correct

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Old 05-04-2016, 09:48 PM   #154
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Nobody here wants to hear this BUT - this need to be put in perspective - all this discussion and energy spent over supplemental feed may be interesting but it is such a small part of what it takes to grow trophy deer on a low fence ranch. When put into context, genetics, habitat, management, and age are the real contributors to producing high end trophy bucks. Feed is such a small portion of the equation. In dry years it does have some impact - in wet years it truthfully is not the factor in horn growth. If you are selling feed or or believe it makes all the difference then fine - but the reality is no matter how good a feed is it really has a small overall impact on what a LF ranch will produce. Any legitimate biologist will tell you the same.
Yep

I've got age and habitat I'm just working on management and learning all I can about feed. Genetics I obviously can't change LF but I see it as best to get the best nutrition as soon as you can, then if you see the "plateaus" in growth you know it's all you could do.
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:00 PM   #155
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Check ur pm
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:25 PM   #156
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:31 PM   #157
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Yeah..... $42.95 a bag for Max Energy AM here.... WOZERS!!!

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They also eat twice as much of it and grow an additional 50" of bone. Well worth the $$$ !!
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:34 PM   #158
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They also eat twice as much of it and grow an additional 50" of bone. Well worth the $$$ !!
That's gonna be an experiment I'll let you conduct....

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Old 05-04-2016, 10:48 PM   #159
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For years protein has helped grow larger antlers and larger body's also allowing deer to grow older. I my self have hunted ranches without supplement feed and for the last 15 years hunted ranches with supplement feed. When we stop thinking improvement can be made we stop progressing. Jason DD is progress IMO
I have never met you. I am as B&C said earlier in the thread, not a sales representative just another satisfied customer. I haven't posted here much except during these feed discussions. I like to stay out on the sidelines and watch. I will tell you I have seen some really nice jumps in antler mass and body weights on our lease since I started feeding DD. I do believe DD is a special feed that has improved above other brands that are still building the same old feed.
I have seen the results and watched deer progress on the Holden pasture over the years as many on here have. Mr. H would not be feeding it if he wasn't satisfied. He has an extremely high passion for big Whitetail Deer. I have seen him watch deer I would have considered management deer becoming deer of a lifetime on the other site. That ranch shows results and I enjoy watching. That ranch has been a huge inspiration to me. Jason and I commend you, DF&G and your marketing structure. Seeing all the photos and videos your marketing guys do have really changed things for many hunters including my self. I enjoy seeing instead of hearing about how things are being done. The Double Down Facebook is really nice please keep it going as usual it's very informative not to mention the great photos!
You are making the best deer feed available and its is a tough road to travel being at the top. I hope to get a chance to meet you in person Saturday I will be dropping by your store on my way to the ranch. Thank you for stepping in on the feed conversation it's been a long time coming and very educational.
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:41 PM   #160
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be nice if I could find some of these other then MG and antler maxx local to me. So could give some of them a try.
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:43 PM   #161
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For years protein has helped grow larger antlers and larger body's also allowing deer to grow older. I my self have hunted ranches without supplement feed and for the last 15 years hunted ranches with supplement feed. When we stop thinking improvement can be made we stop progressing. Jason DD is progress IMO

I have never met you. I am as B&C said earlier in the thread, not a sales representative just another satisfied customer. I haven't posted here much except during these feed discussions. I like to stay out on the sidelines and watch. I will tell you I have seen some really nice jumps in antler mass and body weights on our lease since I started feeding DD. I do believe DD is a special feed that has improved above other brands that are still building the same old feed.

I have seen the results and watched deer progress on the Holden pasture over the years as many on here have. Mr. H would not be feeding it if he wasn't satisfied. He has an extremely high passion for big Whitetail Deer. I have seen him watch deer I would have considered management deer becoming deer of a lifetime on the other site. That ranch shows results and I enjoy watching. That ranch has been a huge inspiration to me. Jason and I commend you, DF&G and your marketing structure. Seeing all the photos and videos your marketing guys do have really changed things for many hunters including my self. I enjoy seeing instead of hearing about how things are being done. The Double Down Facebook is really nice please keep it going as usual it's very informative not to mention the great photos!

You are making the best deer feed available and its is a tough road to travel being at the top. I hope to get a chance to meet you in person Saturday I will be dropping by your store on my way to the ranch. Thank you for stepping in on the feed conversation it's been a long time coming and very educational.


Thank you for the kind words. Happy to hear your great results on our DD feed. We feel that we have developed and brought to the market place a top notch product.

I'm all for exchanging information and sharing our thoughts when it comes to deer protein. We have been producing such products since 1981 right here in Dilley.

Please drop by for a cup of coffee on Saturday.
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Old 05-05-2016, 09:44 AM   #162
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Yes I do believe he believes in the feed, but also when he owns the trademark for the feed he has a financial gain from it.

If he had no financial gain, he wouldn't be so invested in it and spending so much time promoting it, saving and sending in pics and so on. I just want the facts to be facts. By him promoting it and being their top "satisfied customer" he has a gain in it along with good deals on a good feed

Without the Holden Ranch and Mr. H, we wouldn't be having this discussion as the teaming up with him and showing pics made it what it is.

This is not a bash, just informing everyone that he does get something out of it so it is unbiased to sorts

Think about it....would you be all over the internet repping a product, posting before/after photos, and spending all day promoting it if you had a full time job and got no deal on feed or money from it?

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Old 05-05-2016, 09:24 PM   #163
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Well..... this post have got my hamster wheel spinning at mock speed. Picked up the protein today for the next feeder fill. It's weeks away, but excited about the TDN and seeing what happens. Alternating bags upon filling it will contain 50-50 Lyssy & Eckel mixed with Double Down. This should give a combo of protein sources with some.of the highest TDN available. Gonna keep that mix up thru this anther growth season as well as next (about next 18 months) and document the results as I go along. We shall see what happens. Wish me luck!

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Old 05-05-2016, 09:50 PM   #164
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What "results" are you going to document?
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Old 05-05-2016, 09:52 PM   #165
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Just photo game camera pics to see of there is a noticeable difference in antlers, body mass, or fawn numbers, size. Nothing scientific really. More of anything that will make me feel justified in my efforts and keep me moving forward in the same direction.

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Old 05-06-2016, 09:08 AM   #166
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Just photo game camera pics to see of there is a noticeable difference in antlers, body mass, or fawn numbers, size. Nothing scientific really. More of anything that will make me feel justified in my efforts and keep me moving forward in the same direction.

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you won't notice a difference this year or next....its a long term project.

DD and LE are my 2 favorites if money is no issue
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:40 AM   #167
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You have to understand the difference in hunting and feding the Trans-Pecos desert. There is VERY LITTLE food out there and very low deer densities. The first year we began feeding we went from seeing 5 deer a day to 20-30 deer a day and could already see difference in health and antlers. I understand the long term goals and effects, but this is like building a grocery store in the middle in a remote desert village..... Makes a lot larger impact that starting a feeding program were there is already ample natural food sources.
We shall see what the game camera and hunts show over the next 18 months.

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Old 05-06-2016, 08:54 PM   #168
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Yes I do believe he believes in the feed, but also when he owns the trademark for the feed he has a financial gain from it.

If he had no financial gain, he wouldn't be so invested in it and spending so much time promoting it, saving and sending in pics and so on. I just want the facts to be facts. By him promoting it and being their top "satisfied customer" he has a gain in it along with good deals on a good feed

Without the Holden Ranch and Mr. H, we wouldn't be having this discussion as the teaming up with him and showing pics made it what it is.

This is not a bash, just informing everyone that he does get something out of it so it is unbiased to sorts

Think about it....would you be all over the internet repping a product, posting before/after photos, and spending all day promoting it if you had a full time job and got no deal on feed or money from it?
DF&G where are you? A response to the mans post seems appropriate. Seems like a legitimate question.
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Old 05-06-2016, 09:36 PM   #169
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Sorry we are freaking slammed here at the feed mill in Dilley.

We have never denied that Brett's team has assisted us in marketing this feed. I'll tell you that any benefits that Brett realizes are not open for discussion. This thread is about the best supplemental proteins on the market.

I've been totally up front with all involved and more than willing to share information. The knowledge received and traded back and forth here is exactly what I've hoped it would be.

Bottom line if Brett didn't think it was the best supplemental feed on the market he wouldn't touch it.

Listen, we have done our research on all the feeds offered. We developed this feed four years ago and it flat out works.


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Old 05-06-2016, 10:25 PM   #170
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[quote=DF&G;11311508]Sorry we are freaking slammed here at the feed mill in Dilley.

We have never denied that Brett's team has assisted us in marketing this feed. I'll tell you that any benefits that Brett realizes are not open for discussion. This thread is about the best supplemental proteins on the market.

I've been totally up front with all involved and more than willing to share information. The knowledge received and traded back and forth here is exactly what I've hoped it would be.

Bottom line if Brett didn't think it was the best supplemental feed on the market he wouldn't touch it.

Listen, we have done our research on all the feeds offered. We developed this feed four years ago and it flat

Never mind you are not worth a reponse

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Old 05-06-2016, 10:52 PM   #171
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Well funny you change your tune when you were so hasty with your comments a while ago:

Name:  Image1462589631.208876.jpg
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If you want to turn this into some sort of personal vendetta that's fine. I'm on here to talk deer feed and its evolution. Simple enough.



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Old 05-06-2016, 10:53 PM   #172
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Back to topic: Any other feeds that ween need to track down TDN's on to add to the list???

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Old 05-06-2016, 11:37 PM   #173
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This thread makes me wonder what the TDN is of elgato feed is. Or how does it compare to the others, sense his is a custom blend.
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Old 05-07-2016, 12:19 AM   #174
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Never mind you are not worth a reponse

Wow
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Old 05-07-2016, 07:20 AM   #175
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[quote=TKK;11311671]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DF&G View Post
Sorry we are freaking slammed here at the feed mill in Dilley.

We have never denied that Brett's team has assisted us in marketing this feed. I'll tell you that any benefits that Brett realizes are not open for discussion. This thread is about the best supplemental proteins on the market.

I've been totally up front with all involved and more than willing to share information. The knowledge received and traded back and forth here is exactly what I've hoped it would be.

Bottom line if Brett didn't think it was the best supplemental feed on the market he wouldn't touch it.

Listen, we have done our research on all the feeds offered. We developed this feed four years ago and it flat

Never mind you are not worth a reponse
My apologies I intended to say it is not worth a response. I have no beef with you personally or the feed that you sell. My issue simply is the way It is promoted.
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:13 AM   #176
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This thread is very interesting. So is TDN the end all be all when looking at protein feed? We feed Record Rack 20% and have been pretty happy with it, but we are always looking for a better quality feed that's somewhat close to our property. Is there a DD dealer close to Brady, TX?
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:16 AM   #177
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This thread is very interesting. So is TDN the end all be all when looking at protein feed? We feed Record Rack 20% and have been pretty happy with it, but we are always looking for a better quality feed that's somewhat close to our property. Is there a DD dealer close to Brady, TX?


The closest dealer we have to Brady is Fredricksburg, which isn't too close. If you have any suggestions or contacts in or around the Brady area please PM me and I'll be happy to see what I can do. I'd really like to get a central Texas dealer on board.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:52 AM   #178
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I was able to confirm with Double Down, Bee County Co-op, and Lyssey and Eckel (the top 3 on the list) that neither of them adjust their recipes at all....working on finding out from the other feed companies.

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Old 05-09-2016, 10:54 AM   #179
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Here is the list thus far:



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Double Down = 82.6%
Bee County Co-Op Deer Pellets 17 = 77.8%
L&E = 76.7%
Exxtreme Racks 20 = 74%
Record Rack 20 = 71%
AntlerMax 20 = 67%
Red Chain 20 = 65%
Fehner = 64.7%
MG 18% MVP = 64.7%
MG 20% ST = 60.9%
Red Chain 17 = 60%
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:36 PM   #180
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This thread is very interesting. So is TDN the end all be all when looking at protein feed?
This is the big ?
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:18 PM   #181
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I would say no, otherwise we would've heard about it a long time ago. If I were L&E and had a higher TDN than Antlermax or even Record Rack I certainly would've pushed that subject in my marketing. Wouldn't have you?!
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:20 PM   #182
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I would say no, otherwise we would've heard about it a long time ago. If I were L&E and had a higher TDN than Antlermax or even Record Rack I certainly would've pushed that subject in my marketing. Wouldn't you?!
Yes I think they would have....so it must not be a huge deal. We know DD would be all over this

I think in LF supplemental feeding it is not a huge deal.....if inside a breeding pen or HF with little natural browse it would be a bigger deal.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:20 PM   #183
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I would say no, otherwise we would've heard about it a long time ago. If I were L&E and had a higher TDN than Antlermax or even Record Rack I certainly would've pushed that subject in my marketing. Wouldn't have you?!

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Yes I think they would have....so it must not be a huge deal. We know DD would be all over this

I think in LF supplemental feeding it is not a huge deal.....if inside a breeding pen or HF with little natural browse it would be a bigger deal.
End all be all? No but still an important number I would think. I was told my local mill NEg (net energy for gain) is more important but it looks like that kinda goes along with higher TDN seeing lab samples. You still want your minerals and stuff right for your place also. If this stuff matters for cattle you would assume it would matter in deer if you're that serious about your supplemental feeding program.

I remember when the protein % was all that mattered to people, then minerals, then vitamins, now possibly this being a decision maker. As people learn more and more they demand more.

Also L&E doesn't change their formulas like RR but you don't see anyone marketing that fact either and that's a much bigger deal
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:38 AM   #184
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So are food plot plants 100% digestible or how do things like soybeans/lab lab ect compare in digestibility. just wondering for a reference. which are the most cost effective. not against protein and this is a good thread. when you feed the neighbors deer and they shoot more than you do you have to be cost effective as possible. thanks
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:53 AM   #185
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Back to topic: Any other feeds that ween need to track down TDN's on to add to the list???

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Any One Know The TDN for Cottonseed?
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:54 AM   #186
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94%


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Old 05-10-2016, 10:58 AM   #187
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Whole cotton seed is 28% protein and 90% TDN
Cotton seed meal is 46% protein and 75% TDN
Corn is 9.8% protein and 90% TDN
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:03 AM   #188
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:15 AM   #189
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What about Gossypol ?????
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/231635/
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:32 AM   #190
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During the cotton seed pressing process the gossypol levels drop to such negligible levels it should not cause concerns ruminant feeds.
Much like how soybeans are processed and handled.


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Old 05-10-2016, 11:48 AM   #191
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Thats not what the article says. and a lot of the deer hunters feed whole cottonseed along with the protein. (that has cottonseed in it)
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:03 PM   #192
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This is the conclusion of the article.

10. Conclusions and Future Research Directions

The ingestion of gossypol present in cottonseed and its products (cakes and meal) may promote clinical poisoning, liver damage, male and female reproductive toxicity, and immunological impairment. The acute poisoning is not currently a significant problem but the reproductive damage causes serious economic losses to the livestock industry. Even though the male reproductive toxicity is well known, there is a need for more studies to understand the female reproductive damage promoted by gossypol. The immunotoxicity of gossypol is far from being completely elucidated, but it impacts animals by reducing their resistance to infections and by impairing the efficiency of vaccines. Extensive research is needed to develop more efficient and inexpensive technologies to reduce gossypol toxicity.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:12 PM   #193
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Isn't the whole issue with gossypol only if a deer eats a high % of his diet in cottonseed? From the studies I have read, a free range buck/doe will not eat a high enough % of their diet in cottonseed. Therefore, they don't see the effects of gossypol. The articles I am speaking of are from Caesar Kleberg.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:15 PM   #194
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Thats not what the article says. and a lot of the deer hunters feed whole cottonseed along with the protein. (that has cottonseed in it)
That's almost exactly what the article reads. Gossypol is an issue in Whole Cottonseed. Always has been and always will be. When it is processed into cottonseed meal, almost all the oil is removed. During this process, gossypol is transformed from "free" to "bound". Bound gossypol or d-gossypol is considered to be inactive in feed ingredients. Furthermore, the heat process and diluting of cottonseed meal with other ingredients in a pellet form make it non existent.

As for it's concentration in whole cottonseed, it is hard to detect. You could hold out two handfuls and one would contain 12,000 parts and the other 0. But the supplement nutritional value is a risk many deer hunters are willing to take.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:27 PM   #195
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Isn't the whole issue with gossypol only if a deer eats a high % of his diet in cottonseed? From the studies I have read, a free range buck/doe will not eat a high enough % of their diet in cottonseed. Therefore, they don't see the effects of gossypol. The articles I am speaking of are from Caesar Kleberg.
You are correct. Most of these studies, like the one quoted above, are directed to dairy cattle.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:43 PM   #196
JWHunt
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Im just trying to ask questions that are important points in feeding deer. You read a lot of scientific articles about deer feed products that say what can happen if presented in diet. Cattle feeders will not feed it to there bulls. If it only affects the reproduction by 1/3 then if a buck only breeds 3 does in one breeding season( free range low or high fence) then you might only impregnate 1-2 does. So you might not be replacing the herd like you think you are.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:50 PM   #197
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I'm already building my stack of DD and L&E for the next trip west to fill feeders. Gonna mix it 50-50. 2 high quality feeds with separate protein sources and vitamin contents should cover the spectrum and provide all that I can give to the deer out there.



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Old 05-10-2016, 01:02 PM   #198
JWHunt
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That just might be the ticket Cody. Can't wait to see the results.
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Old 05-10-2016, 01:09 PM   #199
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I know very little about the science behind feeding deer supplemental protein, but I compare it to workout diets for strength and size gains which I did for years. In years passed, guys would eat tuna from daylight to dark and made great gains, but when that trend began to fade and they ate tuna, chicken, eggs, and beef they found that they made quicker and better gains. The reason was different protein sources which digested at different rates and offered a wider range of vitamins, minerals, and amino acids.
This may be a 100% apples to oranges comparison and have ZERO relationship to deer protein, but it makes sense in my head and I figure with both DD & L&E (which are both avaialble here locally) I can offer the widest range of high quality protein and vitamin content.

Just my thoughts.....

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Old 05-10-2016, 01:11 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by JWHunt View Post
Im just trying to ask questions that are important points in feeding deer. You read a lot of scientific articles about deer feed products that say what can happen if presented in diet. Cattle feeders will not feed it to there bulls. If it only affects the reproduction by 1/3 then if a buck only breeds 3 does in one breeding season( free range low or high fence) then you might only impregnate 1-2 does. So you might not be replacing the herd like you think you are.


To our knowledge none of our customers have ran into a issue with cottonseed regardless of the form. The cattle industry has been utilizing all components of the cotton plant from whole cottonseed to cottonseed meal to gin trash and burrs for ages.
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