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Old 05-03-2016, 03:28 PM   #101
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I'd love to hear more about "how you don't want it much more higher"....

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He said to call anytime with questions but some of it was over my head. He made it sound good but I'm not sure why you wouldn't want 100%. Some of its got to be stuff to keep it pelletized I would assume?? I know it's not much powder in our feed so little waste there. Heck I could be off though


He's not just the office guy though he THE feed guy. If you want a custom blend he's the fella that comes to your place to take samples of the native forage so he's gotta know at least a little and dang sure enough to confuse me haha
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Old 05-03-2016, 03:30 PM   #102
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Really like your list so we can compare maybe we can plug in the per ton cost for each as well. The Exxtreme Rack 20 runs $360 a ton that's bagged.
Agree. Latest prices my buddy sent me

Mg 18% MVP is $375ish

MG 20% ST is $360ish
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:49 PM   #103
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Double Down = 82.6%
Bee County Co-Op Deer Pellets 17 = 77.8%
L&E = 76.7%
Exxtreme Racks 20 = 74%
Record Rack 20 = 71%
AntlerMax 20 = 67%
Red Chain 20 = 65%
Fehner = 64.7%
MG 18% MVP = 64.7%
MG 20% ST = 60.9%
Red Chain 17 = 60%
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:53 PM   #104
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Lab results should be the official number for comparison, not numbers over the phone
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:55 PM   #105
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I'd love to hear more about "how you don't want it much more higher"....

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Looking back at my email from him I don't think he meant TDN wasn't important but that the energy numbers were more important to consider. NEg, NEl, and NEm
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:55 PM   #106
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Lab results should be the official number for comparison, not numbers over the phone
I'll see what I can come up with


Not that it matters nobody is claiming theirs to be higher than y'alls feed

Last edited by bphillips; 05-03-2016 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:57 PM   #107
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All the numbers I've posted are from the most reputable sources I've been able to obtain. If anyone wants to send in the feeds and show the lab results, I'd be more than happy to update the list. This post can be a good running tab of what's out there and the most recent and accurate information.

I'm just a small time hunter who feeds a ton of protein every 70 days in the desert. I like many, just want to get the best bang for my buck. I don't represent or promote any company or product related to this thread.... I feel it a very interesting and important topic...

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Old 05-03-2016, 10:08 PM   #108
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I like this thread it's made me look into things I never considered before in deer feed. If I can't find an analysis on my feed I'll see about sending for one myself if I figure out how to do that.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:15 PM   #109
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I like this thread it's made me look into things I never considered before in deer feed. If I can't find an analysis on my feed I'll see about sending for one myself if I figure out how to do that.


I'm glad you are thinking about things in a bit of a different light. As a feed manufacturer all is ask is that we compare apples to apples. I'm not saying other feeds are inferior bit I think we make a heck of a line of deer feeds.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:16 PM   #110
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I'll see what I can come up with


Not that it matters nobody is claiming theirs to be higher than y'alls feed


I'm only an independent consumer who is paying a premium to the local feed store to feed what I believe is the best feed on the market. After 25 years of managing and feeding, I felt the deer had hit a plateau and I needed a change. DD had just come out and offered a better product than the Record Rack I'd been feeding for the last 10 years.

I asked the Record Rack regional sales rep in 2012 if they changed their ingredients depending on market price. His answer was that RR would always test out to the label, but in order for them to make a profit, "of course they would adjust ingredients depending on price and availability". Digestibility varies from ingredient to ingredient in pellets. Varying these ingredients dependant on commodity price to maximise profit doesn't equate to a consistent quality feed. My understanding is that DF&G doesn't adjust the recipe of DD for profit. Every bag is consistent and has a higher TDN than any other feed available. I'm sold on the idea.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:18 PM   #111
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I like this thread it's made me look into things I never considered before in deer feed. If I can't find an analysis on my feed I'll see about sending for one myself if I figure out how to do that.
Give Jason or I a call or email and we can set you up with the guys we use. Pretty simple process and the results usually take a few days.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:23 PM   #112
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Thanks to everyone involved with this thread. Really educational & helpful.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:26 PM   #113
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I'm glad you are thinking about things in a bit of a different light. As a feed manufacturer all is ask is that we compare apples to apples. I'm not saying other feeds are inferior bit I think we make a heck of a line of deer feeds.
I agree all numbers show that even those given to me locally.
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I'm only an independent consumer who is paying a premium to the local feed store to feed what I believe is the best feed on the market. After 25 years of managing and feeding, I felt the deer had hit a plateau and I needed a change. DD had just come out and offered a better product than the Record Rack I'd been feeding for the last 10 years.

I asked the Record Rack regional sales rep in 2012 if they changed their ingredients depending on market price. His answer was that RR would always test out to the label, but in order for them to make a profit, "of course they would adjust ingredients depending on price and availability". Digestibility varies from ingredient to ingredient in pellets. Varying these ingredients dependant on commodity price to maximise profit doesn't equate to a consistent quality feed. My understanding is that DF&G doesn't adjust the recipe of DD for profit. Every bag is consistent and has a higher TDN than any other feed available. I'm sold on the idea.
I would agree with that from the numbers and consumption rates reported. I didn't know that about record rack but here it's doesn't change either and the price will flucuate along with ingredients but that's better than inconsistency IMO. It took DF&G almost no time to send me requested info also
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Give Jason or I a call or email and we can set you up with the guys we use. Pretty simple process and the results usually take a few days.
Thanks I've got the name since he sent me an analysis already. Y'all have been more than helpful. I don't expect to be better just like to see where it stacks up
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:30 PM   #114
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I agree all numbers show that even those given to me locally.



I would agree with that from the numbers and consumption rates reported. I didn't know that about record rack but here it's doesn't change either and the price will flucuate along with ingredients but that's better than inconsistency IMO. It took DF&G almost no time to send me requested info


Ask the Cargill/Record Rack salesman if they adjust ingredients to hedge market prices.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:34 PM   #115
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Ask the Cargill/Record Rack salesman if they adjust ingredients to hedge market prices.
Haha I wonder what went through his head when put on the spot like that
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:38 PM   #116
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Corporate feed mills (Cargill, Purina, etc...) have to create a profit for their shareholders.
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Old 05-03-2016, 11:14 PM   #117
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Corporate feed mills (Cargill, Purina, etc...) have to create a profit for their shareholders.
Definitely. It never crossed my mind switching things though I guess I never noticed their feeds don't just fluctuate in price like the small guys. Glad I know now
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Old 05-03-2016, 11:21 PM   #118
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Default Protein Pellet Ingredients

As a small guy we just want to produce a good product for our customers. Most of which we are on a first name basis with. Don't get me wrong here we are all in this to turn a profit but i know that we offer top notch customer service coupled with premium feeds


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Old 05-04-2016, 08:00 AM   #119
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I considered DD until one of the Holden guys called me a ****** on Facebook.

I may have made a comment about their methods of advertising.


When (if ever) will y'all be pushing this stuff further north? I think Austin is my closest dealer to Coleman.
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Old 05-04-2016, 08:08 AM   #120
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Georgetown is closest at the moment. Always looking to add new dealers so if you have a good relationship with your local guy please email or pm me details and I'll see what I can do


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Old 05-04-2016, 08:29 AM   #121
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This is great stuff. We are about to start running protein on our place. Tried some Record Rack stuff for a while that came from the TSC I believe and deer didnt seem to take to it. I live in Houston and hunt near Palestine. I am not sure what of the "good brands" are available to me near either place or in between. I would like to support to smaller local feed companys though rather than the big corporations. Need to start doing my research I guess.
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Old 05-04-2016, 08:32 AM   #122
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Georgetown is closest at the moment. Always looking to add new dealers so if you have a good relationship with your local guy please email or pm me details and I'll see what I can do


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Who is the dealer in Georgetown? Thanks
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Old 05-04-2016, 08:48 AM   #123
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So now you need a cost comparison between feeds to consider the pluses/minuses in relation to cost.
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Old 05-04-2016, 08:51 AM   #124
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Really like your list so we can compare maybe we can plug in the per ton cost for each as well. The Exxtreme Rack 20 runs $360 a ton that's bagged.
Have you seen any bulk pricing yet at angelo pellets?
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Old 05-04-2016, 08:55 AM   #125
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Have you seen any bulk pricing yet at angelo pellets?
I could be wrong but I thought they told me last time I was in there that it was the same price bulk or bagged but that was using their trailer so maybe if you have your own its better??
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:11 AM   #126
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Who is the dealer in Georgetown? Thanks


The Feed Store. Clint is the guy to talk to. His cell is 512-863-5420
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:35 AM   #127
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I considered DD until one of the Holden guys called me a ****** on Facebook.

I may have made a comment about their methods of advertising.
.
Yes this is what pushes a lot of people away. As a professional some of them do not realize they cannot do that to someone who has a negative light on their products or services.

The owner or top dog himself did it also on FB
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:23 AM   #128
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I could be wrong but I thought they told me last time I was in there that it was the same price bulk or bagged but that was using their trailer so maybe if you have your own its better??


May be I haven't asked.
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:30 AM   #129
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What is the current price range for DD in bags?

I would be interested in it if the price came down some. I just cant justify $2.50-3 more a bag on a small ranch
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:46 AM   #130
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Yes this is what pushes a lot of people away. As a professional some of them do not realize they cannot do that to someone who has a negative light on their products or services.

The owner or top dog himself did it also on FB
With all due respect I'm certain that Mr. Holden did not make a mistake like that on FB. I'm pretty sure that he doesn't have a FB account. That being said I know that things can get out of hand online. We have had to delete some out of line comments made by actual customers that were commenting in defense of negativity. It's a powerful tool, but can go the other direction too.

We are proud of this product and customers like Mr. Holden are excited with the results. So much so that if you would like to speak with him about protein, his program, or anything in between PM me with your contact info and I'll assure you a call from him asap. I've always known him to be very open to sharing info with anyone willing to listen.
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:04 AM   #131
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Georgetown is closest at the moment. Always looking to add new dealers so if you have a good relationship with your local guy please email or pm me details and I'll see what I can do


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I do but they are a dead set ADM dealer when it comes to deer feeds. Pm sent regardless.
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Old 05-04-2016, 11:39 AM   #132
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With all due respect I'm certain that Mr. Holden did not make a mistake like that on FB. I'm pretty sure that he doesn't have a FB account. That being said I know that things can get out of hand online. We have had to delete some out of line comments made by actual customers that were commenting in defense of negativity. It's a powerful tool, but can go the other direction too.

We are proud of this product and customers like Mr. Holden are excited with the results. So much so that if you would like to speak with him about protein, his program, or anything in between PM me with your contact info and I'll assure you a call from him asap. I've always known him to be very open to sharing info with anyone willing to listen.
So it is a fair thing to do for a company to delete negative reviews from actual paying customers of yours?

Reviews are sometimes and a lot of times going to go in the other direction, and that is business. Even more reason to watch how and what professionals say and do what you can to make it the opposite.

Again I am not bashing the product as it seems very good, just the way some things have been handled and in desperation makes many people have a bad rap and shy away.

But DD protein seems to be leading this conversation in terms of TDN.
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:07 PM   #133
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So it is a fair thing to do for a company to delete negative reviews from actual paying customers of yours?

Reviews are sometimes and a lot of times going to go in the other direction, and that is business. Even more reason to watch how and what professionals say and do what you can to make it the opposite.

Again I am not bashing the product as it seems very good, just the way some things have been handled and in desperation makes many people have a bad rap and shy away.

But DD protein seems to be leading this conversation in terms of TDN.
I'm all about reviews. There are pros and cons to everything, and this thread is proof of that. Free market, and the consumer in the driver's seat.

What I was referring to was posts about DD in a negative light being replied to in improperly. Think we had a actual customer that took a post too far in defense of DD, and that's what I deleted. Same as Sippy pointed out someone calling him a ****** on FB - it just shouldn't have happened.

Sorry if my wording on that post was misleading, I'm not going to censor someone's thought/opinion/review if it's real - customer or noncustomer.
I just want to make sure its kept as clean as possible on our FB page same TBH. I believe in keeping things family friendly just an old school country way of doing business.
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:35 PM   #134
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How much is the same feed in a plain sack without the dd label?
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:37 PM   #135
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With all due respect, please keep the integrity of this post as well as its benefit and purpose entact. Eventhough people's attitudes and responses may influence if a customer buys their products, it does not effect the content of the feed itself. Thank you

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Old 05-04-2016, 12:42 PM   #136
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DF&G,

Can you post a side by side comparison of the DD and RHR (assuming y'all still make it)? I know the RHR was a good product and used to feed it.
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:51 PM   #137
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How much is the same feed in a plain sack without the dd label?
At Boedeker in Shiner, I got DD in a plain sack for $14.50 per bag or 10 or more bags for $14.00.

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Old 05-04-2016, 01:14 PM   #138
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Sorry if my wording on that post was misleading, I'm not going to censor someone's thought/opinion/review if it's real - customer or noncustomer.
I just want to make sure its kept as clean as possible on our FB page same TBH. I believe in keeping things family friendly just an old school country way of doing business.
I applaud you for that and keep it country

IMHO I think you need to tell some of the people working/operating DD this, and whoever operates their FB page and any other sites where they are lurking because that's the #1 complain I hear is the desperation in advertising

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How much is the same feed in a plain sack without the dd label?
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Originally Posted by Black Gold View Post
At Boedeker in Shiner, I got DD in a plain sack for $14.50 per bag or 10 or more bags for $14.00.

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I think he is referencing that the DD label/hype makes the protein a lot higher in $$$, whereas if someone else made the exact same ration it would be cheaper in a plain brown bag with no DD label

I just can't fathom spending $4-5 more per bag for a deer. I wish I could
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:27 PM   #139
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DF&G,

Can you post a side by side comparison of the DD and RHR (assuming y'all still make it)? I know the RHR was a good product and used to feed it.
Yes sir we are still making our RHR ration. Without giving out the formulas here's some comparisons in the two rations:
1. Different vitamin & mineral package in DD. We tweaked micros and Added Diamond V Yeast.
2. Maxed out the levels of peanuts in DD. We couldn't get a pellet to hold together and bind if we used in a higher concentration.
3. We increased natural protein components in DD. That's the main contributor in DD coming in at a lower fiber content.
4. TDN is higher in DD. I know its on the list on this thread. RHR has been running right at 79%.
Customers have had great results in both of the individual feed lines.
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:29 PM   #140
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What does RHR stand for? I can add it to the list if it's an available feed option.... just let me know.

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Old 05-04-2016, 02:31 PM   #141
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It's simply the initials of the gentleman that helped formulate the ration back in the 90's.
I know it's boring and not very innovative from a branding perspective.
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:33 PM   #142
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Anyone asked Purina or one of the other big deer research brands about TDN? Would be good to hear from someone like Dr Varner or the like on the subject.
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:16 PM   #143
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Anyone asked Purina or one of the other big deer research brands about TDN? Would be good to hear from someone like Dr Varner or the like on the subject.
Agree! And how big of a roll it plays

Sippy: Can you get Dr. Kroll to answer this? He is unbiased
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:54 PM   #144
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Anyone asked Purina or one of the other big deer research brands about TDN? Would be good to hear from someone like Dr Varner or the like on the subject.
The link below gives a recommended nutrient levels in supplemental feed by Dr. Varner. A little old but a good read.

tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_w7000_0033.pdf

From my little bit of reading up on this. TDN is a measure of digestible energy stored in the feed. It is just one component in evaluating a feed.

Corn will have a TDN around 78% and roasted soy beans be around 90.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:15 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by lab man View Post
The link below gives a recommended nutrient levels in supplemental feed by Dr. Varner. A little old but a good read.

tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_w7000_0033.pdf

From my little bit of reading up on this. TDN is a measure of digestible energy stored in the feed. It is just one component in evaluating a feed.

Corn will have a TDN around 78% and roasted soy beans be around 90.
I saw where their max energy bag says its 95% TDN.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:16 PM   #146
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Yeah..... $42.95 a bag for Max Energy AM here.... WOZERS!!!

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Old 05-04-2016, 04:20 PM   #147
bphillips
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lab man View Post
The link below gives a recommended nutrient levels in supplemental feed by Dr. Varner. A little old but a good read.

tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_w7000_0033.pdf

From my little bit of reading up on this. TDN is a measure of digestible energy stored in the feed. It is just one component in evaluating a feed.

Corn will have a TDN around 78% and roasted soy beans be around 90.
I think this is why I was told Net energy was more important because TDN doesn't account for losses?? I believe Net Energy accounts for losses in gas and feces among other things to show what animals actually get from the feed. I've been reading a good bit on these things now that they've come to light.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:50 PM   #148
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I think this is why I was told Net energy was more important because TDN doesn't account for losses?? I believe Net Energy accounts for losses in gas and feces among other things to show what animals actually get from the feed. I've been reading a good bit on these things now that they've come to light.
Pretty neat calculator on the Noble Foundation website that let's you enter TDN value and it breaks out Net Energy in Met. Energy, Net Energy Maintenance, and Net Energy Gain.

http://www.noble.org/ag/tools/livest...on-calculator/
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Old 05-04-2016, 05:05 PM   #149
bphillips
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Originally Posted by DF&G View Post
Pretty neat calculator on the Noble Foundation website that let's you enter TDN value and it breaks out Net Energy in Met. Energy, Net Energy Maintenance, and Net Energy Gain.

http://www.noble.org/ag/tools/livest...on-calculator/
Are lab samples done with a calculator? Reason I ask is I would assume different ingredients could do better or worse depending on the ratios even if two feeds were equal in TDN. Meaning maybe some ingredients are more efficient in getting to the animal?
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Old 05-04-2016, 05:12 PM   #150
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I believe what's done in the lab is done from a chemistry standpoint in order to achieve max accuracy. Of course that probably depends on the lab capabilities. That calculator is surely based off of some huge algorithm that rounds up or down.


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