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    #16
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      #17
      Originally posted by Peyton View Post
      I have over 4 miles of high fence to keep one neighbor’s frankendeer off my property. If one were to break into my ranch, he’d be shot on sight.
      And to keep "your" big 3, 4 and 5 year olds from breaking into the neighbors ranch and being shot on sight.

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        #18
        Originally posted by bukkskin View Post
        And to keep "your" big 3, 4 and 5 year olds from breaking into the neighbors ranch and being shot on sight.


        Any other TDA responses to justify your science project?

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          #19
          Originally posted by Peyton View Post
          Any other TDA responses to justify your science project?
          Not a member and have never even been to an event.
          I prefer to do things my way , just like you do things your way.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Mexico View Post
            You cannot affect genetics as a hunter, and you cannot influence genetics through selective culling in wild deer populations.” ..... only sentence in the article that needs to be read. I've been saying this for years, unless you're high fenced you will not alter your herds genetic plain. And if you are high fenced it still takes years to manipulate your genetics....
            Would you leave any of these deer pictured below running around on your property? I am thinking you would say no, that you would kill (cull) them from the herd. And there would be several reasons for this. Taking a mouth out of the equation, mature bucks dispersing younger bucks to new areas and undesirable genetics. If a buck is dead prior to the rut, then he will not breed that year and the years after. Yes he has bred since he was 1.5 yrs old and has made a few bucks and does with his genetic characteristics. But you can't say that by killing true inferior bucks, you don't help the herd a little bit.
            Attached Files

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              #21
              Originally posted by Mexico View Post
              You cannot affect genetics as a hunter, and you cannot influence genetics through selective culling in wild deer populations.” ..... only sentence in the article that needs to be read. I've been saying this for years, unless you're high fenced you will not alter your herds genetic plain. And if you are high fenced it still takes years to manipulate your genetics....
              True! The only genetics a hunter can affect, is the buck or doe he is about to shoot. Their genetics will no longer be in the pool

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                #22
                Originally posted by Jamesl View Post
                Would you leave any of these deer pictured below running around on your property? I am thinking you would say no, that you would kill (cull) them from the herd. And there would be several reasons for this. Taking a mouth out of the equation, mature bucks dispersing younger bucks to new areas and undesirable genetics. If a buck is dead prior to the rut, then he will not breed that year and the years after. Yes he has bred since he was 1.5 yrs old and has made a few bucks and does with his genetic characteristics. But you can't say that by killing true inferior bucks, you don't help the herd a little bit.
                Im just gonna say this. Just because those bucks have "inferior" antlers does not mean they have inferior genetics. For instance, my wife and I are regular sized people, our 1st born is 6'2'', I am 5'9". My grandmother on my dads' side are all tall people...6' plus all of them.
                My point is so called "superior" genetics can be passed down through so called "inferior" stock.
                By the way, how do you determine which doe to shoot, she is actually the biggest influence in superior genetics?

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Jamesl View Post
                  Would you leave any of these deer pictured below running around on your property? I am thinking you would say no, that you would kill (cull) them from the herd. And there would be several reasons for this. Taking a mouth out of the equation, mature bucks dispersing younger bucks to new areas and undesirable genetics. If a buck is dead prior to the rut, then he will not breed that year and the years after. Yes he has bred since he was 1.5 yrs old and has made a few bucks and does with his genetic characteristics. But you can't say that by killing true inferior bucks, you don't help the herd a little bit.
                  If you're low fence you've done nothing except shoot a few bucks. The genetic evolution of a whitetail has taken 10s of thousands of years to evolve. You shooting a few did absolutely nothing except remove a few mouths out of your feeders. Where did he come from? Who was his momma? Who was his daddy? No way of telling. Their mother could be from 3 ranches over ( strictly talking low fence) and will probably off spring more fawns that could potentially end up on your ranch.
                  Would we have shot them? Yes. Because people pay me to shoot them, but I realize it did very little for my ranch(genetically), and saves me money on my overall protien bill.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by bukkskin View Post
                    Lol, how is breeding a Whitetail to a Whitetail a hybrid?
                    .
                    O. v. borealis – northern white-tailed deer (the largest and darkest of the white-tailed deer)
                    O. v. carminis – Carmen Mountains white-tailed deer (Texas-Mexico border)
                    O. v. clavium – Key deer or Florida Keys white-tailed deer (the smallest North American subspecies, found in the lower Florida Keys; an example of insular dwarfism)
                    O. v. chiriquensis – Chiriqui white-tailed deer (Panama)
                    O. v. couesi – Coues' white-tailed deer, Arizona white-tailed deer, or fantail deer
                    O. v. dakotensis – Dakota white-tailed deer or northern plains white-tailed deer (most northerly distribution, rivals the northern white-tailed deer in size)
                    O. v. hiltonensis – Hilton Head Island white-tailed deer
                    O. v. idahoensis – white-tailed deer (western Canada, Idaho, eastern Washington)[7]
                    O. v. leucurus – Columbian white-tailed deer (Oregon and western coastal area)
                    O. v. macrourus – Kansas white-tailed deer
                    O. v. mcilhennyi – Avery Island white-tailed deer
                    O. v. mexicanus – Mexican white-tailed deer (central Mexico)
                    O. v. miquihuanensis – Miquihuan white-tailed deer (central Mexico)
                    O. v. nelsoni – Chiapas white-tailed deer (southern Mexico and Guatemala)
                    O. v. nigribarbis – Blackbeard Island white-tailed deer
                    O. v. oaxacensis – Oaxaca white-tailed deer (southern Mexico)
                    O. v. ochrourus – northwestern white-tailed deer or northern Rocky Mountains white-tailed deer
                    O. v. osceola – Florida coastal white-tailed deer
                    O. v. rothschildi – Coiba Island white-tailed deer
                    O. v. seminolus – Florida white-tailed deer
                    O. v. sinaloae – Sinaloa white-tailed deer (midwestern Mexico)
                    O. v. taurinsulae – Bulls Island white-tailed deer (Bulls Island, South Carolina)
                    O. v. texanus – Texas white-tailed deer
                    O. v. thomasi – Mexican lowland white-tailed deer
                    O. v. toltecus – rain forest white-tailed deer (southern Mexico)
                    O. v. truei – Central American white-tailed deer (Costa Rica, Nicaragua and adjacent states)
                    O. v. venatorius – Hunting Island white-tailed deer (Hunting Island, South Carolina)
                    O. v. veraecrucis – northern Veracruz white-tailed deer
                    O. v. virginianus – Virginia white-tailed deer or southern white-tailed deer
                    O. v. yucatanensis – Yucatán white-tailed deer


                    Thats how.

                    You don't get to promote science, then call them all the same thing because that's what a scoring system says.

                    You chose a phenotipic trait you liked, then crossbred that phenotipic trait with climactic adaptation of another subspecies. Good job. Fascinating. All of those things. But don't compare breeder deer with native deer.

                    Your specific breeder deer need to be compared with all the rest, then your community can tell us who is the best and we will pay attention to them as the best of the best of the breeders.

                    You don't get to dump an elephant into the hippo pond and brag about having the best long nosed hippo.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by lovemylegacy View Post
                      By the way, how do you determine which doe to shoot, she is actually the biggest influence in superior genetics?
                      A doe contributes 50% of the genetics. No more, no less. To assert a fawn will receive more than 50% of its genetics from any one parent isn't true. However, mom will have a greater influence on the health of the fawn, as the fawn lives with her for the first year.

                      True culling is the removal of mouths to feed on the land so that way each animal gets adequate food, water, and shelter. With those three things, even small bucks will become big fast. How a person determines which deer are "culls" is up to the individual landowner though.

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                        #26
                        Interesting conversation.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by lovemylegacy View Post
                          Im just gonna say this. Just because those bucks have "inferior" antlers does not mean they have inferior genetics. For instance, my wife and I are regular sized people, our 1st born is 6'2'', I am 5'9". My grandmother on my dads' side are all tall people...6' plus all of them.
                          My point is so called "superior" genetics can be passed down through so called "inferior" stock.
                          By the way, how do you determine which doe to shoot, she is actually the biggest influence in superior genetics?
                          We don't know about the doe we shoot. Not arguing that. I'm just saying that in our situation, we are above carrying capacity by choice. We provide all the supplemental feed the deer can consume. We have to remove deer from the herd. We take a very small percentage of trophies because we would rather let them live longer/breed, even though according to the biologists on here, there is absolutely no benefits to doing so. We try to determine the mature bucks that to us, are undesirable, and cull them out of the herd, which again has absolutely no benefit genetically speaking. To me, it's more about removing mature dominate bucks that we don't want bullying young bucks and eating supplemental feed. Whether it helps genetics, is a non issue.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by Mexico View Post
                            If you're low fence you've done nothing except shoot a few bucks. The genetic evolution of a whitetail has taken 10s of thousands of years to evolve. You shooting a few did absolutely nothing except remove a few mouths out of your feeders. Where did he come from? Who was his momma? Who was his daddy? No way of telling. Their mother could be from 3 ranches over ( strictly talking low fence) and will probably off spring more fawns that could potentially end up on your ranch.
                            Would we have shot them? Yes. Because people pay me to shoot them, but I realize it did very little for my ranch(genetically), and saves me money on my overall protien bill.
                            No one can answer that on a low fence ranch. All I know is bucks like I posted above stopped being Daddy's when they took dirt naps. That can't be a bad thing.

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                              #29
                              I'm not aware of it being published yet, but there's some more research coming out of Kingsville that will further dubunk culling, even behind high fence.

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                                #30
                                What you have to worry about on the “culling doesn’t work” arguments is what they are talking about when it comes to moving the needle.

                                Combinations of does/bucks determine offspring with phenotypic traits... while in the long run it may not make a hill of beans difference if you kill one buck over another or one for over another, once a buck or doe manifests that can throw larger offspring, you might as well ride the pony as long as you can.

                                People ask me all the time how we had those two huge deer within 3 years... It’s obviously extremely unlikely that the same ranch would have such a conflagration of weather and genetics so close together..... but is it less likely to happen there or somewhere else? Obviously we had a buck/doe combination push out one big buck... however unlikely could that same combination have happened again? Could that have made the ranch MORE likely at that time to produce those deer? Dunno... obviously it would be better for us if there were multiple ways to get there and the two deer weren’t closely related.

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