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Old 01-11-2018, 10:13 PM   #1
SC-Texas
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Default When is an SBR not an SBR?

When the ATF says so!

An announcement from Franklin Armory.

Trying to decide if this is fake.

An sbr
Designed to be fired from shoulder
1. Less than 16"
Or
2. Less than 26" overall

Okay. My prediction.
1. They took a mission first tactical stock that weighs 6 oz and convince the ATF that it's a stabilizing blade by putting a strap around it

2. 1 rd per Trigger pull = rifle. This fires once when pulled and once when released. Therefore doesn't meet definition of rifle

Could they play off this definition to move it Into firearm catagory?



https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2018...-atf-approval/

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Last edited by SC-Texas; 01-11-2018 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:20 PM   #2
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Super interesting. We will find out for sure in two weeks I imagine.

Are you going to the shot show?
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:32 PM   #3
Artos
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It's a train wreck waiting to happen...no way is this gonna slide by ATF after the bump stock fiasco.

My prediction DOA and/or a play to never even reach production but actually get attn to the company with SHOT timing...I wouldn't touch this as a consumer if I valued my privacy if even available.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:35 PM   #4
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How is this possible? Makes no sense?
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:55 PM   #5
WhiplashTX
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My guess would be that the buffer tube only has one position so the stock won't extend. The ATF has said that the pistol braces are shoulderable but become a SBR when the LOP is increased. They are riding on a fine line that I wouldn't want to put to the test.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:53 PM   #6
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The term ďshort-barreled rifleĒ means:
1. a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length
and
2. any weapon
A. made from a rifle if such weapon, as modified,
B. has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

Is that It? Do yall see that?

That is an AND!
This reformation.
1. Barrel less than 16"
2. NOT MADE FROM A RIFLE OR does this matter?
3. Is NOT less than 26" overall length


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Old 01-12-2018, 03:15 AM   #7
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My guess is it’s a smooth bore. Which is absolutely stupid.
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:48 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
My guess is itís a smooth bore. Which is absolutely stupid.
Itís not ..
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:17 AM   #9
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We won't know until SHOT, but my guess is something simple that has been overlooked regarding length and what the firearm is actually considered.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:20 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
My guess is itís a smooth bore. Which is absolutely stupid.


In the comments somebody said it is a smooth bore with rifled muzzle device, but I think that was a WAG.



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Old 01-12-2018, 08:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabineshooter View Post
Itís not ..
Well it seems youíve seen it. Tell us what the catch is haha
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:23 AM   #12
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Recent history warns that what the BATFE says today could be reversed for no apparent reason tomorrow. I'm betting that that is what happens here.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:36 AM   #13
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i have an SBR I guess....but get around it bc the butt stock. So it's a 300 BLK pistol legally
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:01 PM   #14
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So. It gets better . . . ATF has confirmed that no letter has been issued for this firearm according to recoil web

http://www.recoilweb.com/has-frankli...le-132912.html

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Old 01-13-2018, 09:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
So. It gets better . . . ATF has confirmed that no letter has been issued for this firearm according to recoil web

http://www.recoilweb.com/has-frankli...le-132912.html

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Interesting
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Old 01-15-2018, 07:05 AM   #16
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following, interested to see what this really is
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Old 01-15-2018, 07:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
My guess is itís a smooth bore. Which is absolutely stupid.
Even if it was smooth it would still be NFA, just a short barrel shotgun instead of a rifle.
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:33 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
So. It gets better . . . ATF has confirmed that no letter has been issued for this firearm according to recoil web

http://www.recoilweb.com/has-frankli...le-132912.html

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The article says they are worried about "poking the bear"...ATFE with products like this. Isn't the ATFE long overdue a over haul?
This will be interesting.
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Old 01-15-2018, 09:40 AM   #19
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Marketing. Everyone is talking about it. Even if it is ruled an NFA item, they met their goal of getting their name talked about and generation a buzz.

Im guessing the trigger cycle is what they are going for. Fires when trigger is pulled and let off. One trigger pull essentially creates two shots.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:03 AM   #20
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the hype man hypeth
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:52 AM   #21
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I am confused as of why anyone would think this is a smooth bore? This is all about barrel length verses overall length.... Nothing I read mentioned smooth barrel or shotgun, so what the heck?
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:59 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Fish View Post
I am confused as of why anyone would think this is a smooth bore? This is all about barrel length verses overall length.... Nothing I read mentioned smooth barrel or shotgun, so what the heck?
I think some people are assuming the "Rifling" makes it a Rifle
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:01 AM   #23
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My next build is going to be a Form 1 Suppressor welded to an 8.5" Barrel 300 Blackout. With the Suppressor welded, it becomes part of the barrel and puts the barrel length over 16". So I'm saving $200 by not needing a stamp for the SBR, only the Can
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:36 AM   #24
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The binary trigger has been out for over a year now. I have shot a rifle with this system. The trigger group runs about $400.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:32 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickbowcoop View Post
Even if it was smooth it would still be NFA, just a short barrel shotgun instead of a rifle.
I'm pretty sure it has to fire a shotgun shell to be considered a shotgun.
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:34 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDave View Post
My next build is going to be a Form 1 Suppressor welded to an 8.5" Barrel 300 Blackout. With the Suppressor welded, it becomes part of the barrel and puts the barrel length over 16". So I'm saving $200 by not needing a stamp for the SBR, only the Can
just pay the extra 2 bones & do it right...You will not be happy with it permanently attached. Everyone I know who has done this regretted it terribly.

For only $200 you now have a lifetime of multiple uppers at your disposal for your sbr if you want to make a 5.56 high volume shooting / defense gun or whatever...and for that same $200 you also saved a nice 30cal that would otherwise be melted forever to a barrel (what if it shoots like crap??) that now would be thrown around to say a 308 bolt gun, etc. or used with your future uppers mentioned.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artos View Post
just pay the extra 2 bones & do it right...You will not be happy with it permanently attached. Everyone I know who has done this regretted it terribly.

For only $200 you now have a lifetime of multiple uppers at your disposal for your sbr if you want to make a 5.56 high volume shooting / defense gun or whatever...and for that same $200 you also saved a nice 30cal that would otherwise be melted forever to a barrel (what if it shoots like crap??) that now would be thrown around to say a 308 bolt gun, etc. or used with your future uppers mentioned.
You might also add a lifetime of triggers of your choice. Think about this, if it is a fire on release trigger, how many people are going to get in trouble by replacing the trigger at some point in the life of the weapon?

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Old 01-15-2018, 05:16 PM   #28
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For only $200 you now have a lifetime of multiple uppers at your disposal for your sbr if you want to make a 5.56 high volume shooting / defense gun or whatever...and for that same $200 you also saved a nice 30cal that would otherwise be melted forever to a barrel (what if it shoots like crap??) that now would be thrown around to say a 308 bolt gun, etc. or used with your future uppers mentioned.[/QUOTE]

This brings up a really good scream Rio I thought about today.....
correct me if Iím wrong, but arenít SBRís built based on specific length of barrel and SPECIFIC CALIBER? Wouldnít that mean you built a barrel length ďXĒ and caliber ďXĒóóó you cannot swap a different caliber upper or different length upper under the same Tax Stamp?
🤷*♂️ó-
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:50 PM   #29
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This brings up a really good scream Rio I thought about today.....
correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t SBR’s built based on specific length of barrel and SPECIFIC CALIBER? Wouldn’t that mean you built a barrel length “X” and caliber “X”——— you cannot swap a different caliber upper or different length upper under the same Tax Stamp?
��*♂️—-[/QUOTE]





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





You are getting into muddy territory depending upon when & how the paperwork was done, which ATF inspector you ask, etc...too many scenarios to cover & SC would likely be best to cover them as these 'rules' get muddy themselves as they have seemed to evolve as the popularity grew. Especially on the bbl length issues.

However, If you are going to SBR say an AR lower then make sure it's a 'multi' receiver if you plan to swap different cal uppers.

Last edited by Artos; 01-15-2018 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:03 PM   #30
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What's roll marked on the lower has nothing to do with it. The gun just has to be able to be returned to the original configuration that was applied for. You can permanently change the configuration after the stamp is issued, but you have to inform the ATF that you have done so. Remember with an AR, your sbr the lower, not the upper.
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:14 PM   #31
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Sorry bout that bad spelling and auto correct from the phone. .

Just to me, it seems the BATF is pretty particular how Question #4 and its sub parts are filled out on the Form 1 that you submit.

Think I'll wait till SC chimes in.
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:42 PM   #32
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Once it's registered as an SBR

1. You may run any caliber Barrel that you want
2. You may run any length barrel that you want
3. It does not matter what caliber or whether the magical mystical word multi is engraved on the lower receiver

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Old 01-15-2018, 08:48 PM   #33
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Thank you for clarifying that. Saves a lot of $ and wait times!
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Old 01-15-2018, 09:55 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
Once it's registered as an SBR

1. You may run any caliber Barrel that you want
2. You may run any length barrel that you want
3. It does not matter what caliber or whether the magical mystical word multi is engraved on the lower receiver

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That is what my 'muddied' understanding was if it was actually pushed to some final end game that needed a final resolution, which is really all that matters...I think the muddy part comes into the fact your bullet points 1-3 is not clearly communicated & mostly comprehended not only within ATF agents who simply may not be familiar with nfa, but the fact that your paperwork states 5.56 & 12.5", but other LE who sees 300 BO with 10.5"

I actually got pulled over coming back from the ranch one day loaded for bear & the 35p chrony & this young DPS officer thought every can / sbr could not even be legally owned, much less understanding contradicting forms to said firearms. I think the whole deal took around 3 hours, 2 supervisors with 5 black & whites on the scene.

If you are ignorant on the subject as LE, they are not going to understand / accept when you explain the form has to documented to original orientation when submitted & then can be altered.

This all circles back to your OP & what were they thinking knowing the backlash that is coming.
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:41 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Fish View Post
I am confused as of why anyone would think this is a smooth bore? This is all about barrel length verses overall length.... Nothing I read mentioned smooth barrel or shotgun, so what the heck?
Smooth bore averts the rifle defenition. Also 26Ē or longer oal. Maybe they managed to get the receiver part of the measurement. Who the heck knows. Itís something strange because everything about it screams SBR but ATF has approved it. Iíve heard yíall about it being a smooth bore and it my only guess. I donít think any of the guesses are right lol. Iíve got multiple SBRs and donít see how they got away with it at all.
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:12 PM   #36
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Not exactly smooth bore, but straight rifling/groves....

http://www.recoilweb.com/franklin-ar...ed-133042.html
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:23 PM   #37
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So it's straight rifling.

Ill.post photos tomorrow

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Old 01-23-2018, 01:30 PM   #38
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I don’t see this thing holding water very long.
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:46 PM   #39
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What a let down. I was seriously hoping it was something as simple as a literal interpretation of the length.

Apparently 4-5 MOA at 50 yds with standard projectiles. Supposedly 1 moa at 100 with a new projectile they are introducing that can be loaded in standard casings.
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Old 01-23-2018, 03:00 PM   #40
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Told ya

The new rounds are real weird. Like nerf footballs

Last edited by trophy8; 01-23-2018 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 01-23-2018, 05:13 PM   #41
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I wish some one would just come up with a bull pup that had decent accuracy and a trigger that doesn't suck. But instead we are seemingly tied to a 60 year old rifle design, it is good but ****
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Old 01-23-2018, 07:55 PM   #42
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This was a major nothingburger. So absurd I donít know how they arenít the laughing stock of the show


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Old 01-24-2018, 01:29 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
Told ya

The new rounds are real weird. Like nerf footballs


Did someone say there's a gun that shoots nerf footballs? I must own one


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Old 01-24-2018, 01:33 PM   #44
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No thanks.
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