Balance of FOC, arrow weight, speed

[Mudslinger]

Black eagle has the same thing. I just don’t like the idea of screwed in weights inside my arrow. Anything that can come loose likely will. Putting the 50 grains on the BH and not the insert means less parts that can move. It may not be important when I’m hunting deer from a deer camp, but if I go hunt Colorado away from all of my tools I want something a bit more fool proof that won’t cause major issues

Loc Tite stops any loosening. Never had one come loose!
28” Black Eagle Carnvores. 150 grains behind the insert, 125 grain Ramcats
19+% FOC at 595 grains. Deadly, forgiving, quiet and accurate.
Obsession Def Con 6 @29” & 70#’s. Around 265 fps.

[Rat]

I was going to build them myself. What I have worked up now is the gold tip hunter Xt .300 shafts with the 50 grain aluminum insert and the FACT weight system so I can play with FOC if needed and I could shoot 100-125 grain heads by removing or adding weights. I was mainly wondering what works for everyone and the pros and cons to more weight, higher FOC and what seems to work well for everybody

When all else is equal, and it never really is...
More FOC is better than JUST a heavier arrow. Soft tissue penetration will be better in a higher FOC arrow than the same weight arrow with lower FOC.

Weights are good to play with, but using the heavier broadhead will give you more FOC. Lets say arrow A has 300 gr up front (hypothetical) with a 275 gr head and 25 gr insert. Arrow B has 300 gr up front with a 100 gr head, 25 gr insert and 175 gr of weight behind the insert. Due to the distribution of the weight, Arrow A will have higher FOC. My recommendation is that once you have played with weights and know what you want, build that weight out front for a little better FOC.

Higher FOC also means you need less steerage, which means you can use smaller vanes/feathers, which are lighter, which also helps in higher FOC.

Breaking bone is a function of broadhead design, not FOC. Double blade, single bevel break bones better than anything else by a large margin. Then double blade double bevel, then four blade and then three blade. I'm not saying these will not break bone, I am saying they are not as efficient at breaking bone.

I build the lightest shaft I can, no weights, no brass insert, cut down feathers, and then screw a heavy broadhead to that shaft. This will yield the highest FOC for any given weight arrow.

For everything I hunt in Texas, 500 (ish) gr and 20% FOC is what I shoot for, higher on both is better only if it means a higher FOC.

[Pushbutton2]

I plan on building my next ones at 20% foc.
With the mindset they'll weigh what they weigh.
Likely North of 650 grains.

My arrows are 29.5" long and my draw length is 30.5”

[Kmiles84]

I built some on gold tip velocity shafts spun and cut wobbles out of ends when cutting to length. Downloading the pinwheel software or any other arrow building software can be a big help. I ended with with about 73 grains up front with a calculated 15-16% FOC ant total weight of 459 grains. Love the build and will use it again this year

[Pullersboy]

Had Muddyfuzzy build some Black Eagle Carnivores for me last year. I'm shooting a 503 gr. arrow 248 FPS. Draw is 27.5" at 63 lbs on a Hoyt Faktor. FOC is a little over 18%. Bow is nice and quiet. They fly very true and hit like a piece of rebar. When I'm due for arrows again, I won't change a thing. I've found that the slower speed doesn't seem to have any negative affect.

[rocky]

With the season coming to a close and me running low on arrows it’s time to rig up some heavier arrows. So what balance of these works for you? I’m going to be shooting for the 475-500 grain range with between 13-16 FOC and still trying to maintain 280fps or faster. I’m just looking for a good balance of penetration speed and try to quiet the bow down some.

Current setup is a bowtech cpxl 28 inch draw length 70 pounds shooting a 428 grain arrow with really low FOC and ramcat heads. It blows through most deer and smaller hogs but anything over 200 pounds on pigs it won’t get through them and the bow could be quieter. I’m open to suggestions and recommendations.

I'm pretty sure you're not gonna get to 280 fps with a 475 grain arrow.
Might get 270.


I have to ask this question.
Other than Ashby's studies, done mostly or exclusively with non-compound bows, is there any other studies that prove a high, or extremely high FOC is actually better than say,12-15 percent at a higher speed?

[Reaper87]

[QUOTE=rocky;13073505]I'm pretty sure you're not gonna get to 280 fps with a 475 grain arrow.
Might get 270.


I have to ask this question.
Other than Ashby's studies, done mostly or exclusively with non-compound bows, is there any other studies that prove a high, or extremely high FOC is actually better than say,12-15 percent at a higher speed?[/QUO

And maybe I won’t get 280 to be honest I don’t have a chrono and don’t know what my speed is now. My bad rocky.

As far as studies I don’t know of any and as bad as it sounds I’ve watched several you tube videos of FOC north of 15% getting better penetration on the same median than arrows less than 15% with the same bow. Keep in mind I’m looking for knowledge here. Are you shooting 475. If so what FOC and how do you like the setup??

[rocky]

[quote=Reaper87;13073646]

I'm pretty sure you're not gonna get to 280 fps with a 475 grain arrow.
Might get 270.


I have to ask this question.
Other than Ashby's studies, done mostly or exclusively with non-compound bows, is there any other studies that prove a high, or extremely high FOC is actually better than say,12-15 percent at a higher speed?[/QUO

And maybe I won’t get 280 to be honest I don’t have a chrono and don’t know what my speed is now. My bad rocky.

As far as studies I don’t know of any and as bad as it sounds I’ve watched several you tube videos of FOC north of 15% getting better penetration on the same median than arrows less than 15% with the same bow. Keep in mind I’m looking for knowledge here. Are you shooting 475. If so what FOC and how do you like the setup??

No sir, I do not shoot a 475 grain arrow.
I shoot a 388 grain arrow 280 fps at 28"-64 lbs.
FOC is app. 11 percent.
My wife's set-up keeps me in perspective.
She shoots a 45-46 lb bow at 25" dl with a 290 grain arrow.
Don't know her FOC.
In every case of every deer her or I shoot, penetration is determined by shot placement.
I've seen her arrow completely disappear in the chest of good sized Kansas bucks, and had to cautiously gut the deer to retrieve her arrow that is 23 1/4 inches long.
AS far as shoulder blades are concerned, she can easily penetrate unless she hits the "rib" of the blade, and hitting the shoulder blade is not a very good shot, but it happens.
Rat touched on this, and I agree that broadhead design is more important in breaking bones than FOC.
There seems to be a new internet philosophy that reverts to Ashby's studies on arrows and penetration and high or extreme FOC, and/or broadhead design, but this philosophy and trend fad never takes into account the added velocity of the modern compound bow.

[Reaper87]

I have to ask, was her shot a hard quartering away shot where she got mostly gut behind the last rib and up through the vitals? I only ask because that’s fairly soft median. Like I said I get pass through on almost every whitetail I shoot unless I break the big bone betweeen the elbow and scapula and I still end up with a dead deer. The bigger hogs concern me though. I think if I were to hit the shoulder I may just end up with a mad hog.

[rocky]

I have to ask, was her shot a hard quartering away shot where she got mostly gut behind the last rib and up through the vitals? I only ask because that’s fairly soft median. Like I said I get pass through on almost every whitetail I shoot unless I break the big bone betweeen the elbow and scapula and I still end up with a dead deer. The bigger hogs concern me though. I think if I were to hit the shoulder I may just end up with a mad hog.

On a Kansas buck, with her short arrow, she doesn't have to go thru guts to center the vitals on a quartering away shot, and disappear her arrow.
I am not saying that your desires are unfounded, just simply wondering how you (and others) have come to this conclusion about high/extremely high FOC.
I understand the weight issue.

[Rat]

I'm pretty sure you're not gonna get to 280 fps with a 475 grain arrow.
Might get 270.


I have to ask this question.
Other than Ashby's studies, done mostly or exclusively with non-compound bows, is there any other studies that prove a high, or extremely high FOC is actually better than say,12-15 percent at a higher speed?

Not one that mirrors Ashbey's method but with a compound; unless you want to count the thousands of youtube videos showing the same conclusions as the Ashby study.

The Ashby study does make a difference in speeds, although with stick bows. He uses different bows from 40 pounds up to 65 pounds in the study. Not near the speeds we have with our modern compounds, but those conclusions would imply that there would be no difference in concluding that a much faster arrow would not benefit from more FOC.

One thing to note about the study and this subject in particular. We aren't saying that what you are shooting, or your wife, or your son or whomever, isn't adequate; the search is for more penetration. Only the person shooting the animal can say whether or not the arrow they shoot is adequate. I killed many animals before I shot high FOC, and I still kill animals with high FOC; I just have fewer unrecovered animals on marginal shots. Improved penetration on marginal shots, or very tough animals, is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion.

[rocky]

Not one that mirrors Ashbey's method but with a compound; unless you want to count the thousands of youtube videos showing the same conclusions as the Ashby study.

The Ashby study does make a difference in speeds, although with stick bows. He uses different bows from 40 pounds up to 65 pounds in the study. Not near the speeds we have with our modern compounds, but those conclusions would imply that there would be no difference in concluding that a much faster arrow would not benefit from more FOC.

One thing to note about the study and this subject in particular. We aren't saying that what you are shooting, or your wife, or your son or whomever, isn't adequate; the search is for more penetration. Only the person shooting the animal can say whether or not the arrow they shoot is adequate. I killed many animals before I shot high FOC, and I still kill animals with high FOC; I just have fewer unrecovered animals on marginal shots. Improved penetration on marginal shots, or very tough animals, is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion.

Another factor to debate is stiffness,
As we increase FOC, we weaken spine, and increase flex on impact.
As you know, a stiff arrow will penetrate better than a weak arrow.
I simply wonder how many are pushing the high FOC, vs stiffness, and the penetration difference.
As far as I'm concerned, I've not seen a properly executed penetration test in the web.

[tradslam]

I'm not sure how these threads start and everyone just talks foc without looking at the other factors?? Make sure you do some testing on what spine arrows you'll need. Simply adding point weight to your current arrow will do nothing but cause problems unless your able to cut them way shorter, or you're wayyyy over spinned with your current setup.

[tradslam]

Rocky, beet me to it.

[Reaper87]

I'm not sure how these threads start and everyone just talks foc without looking at the other factors?? Make sure you do some testing on what spine arrows you'll need. Simply adding point weight to your current arrow will do nothing but cause problems unless your able to cut them way shorter, or you're wayyyy over spinned with your current setup.

Very true which is why I’m going from a .340 spine to a .300.