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Old 02-12-2018, 04:02 PM   #51
tradtiger
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Here's the same 679-grain, 29% FOC arrow, shot from a 55# (call it 53# at my 27" drawlength) Ben Pearson recurve. In, but not out.


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Old 02-12-2018, 04:05 PM   #52
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And here's the 679-grain arrow shot from a 50# (48#@my27"DL). Also in, but not out.



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Old 02-12-2018, 04:35 PM   #53
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" only significant differance is the shape of the holes" and you forgot ,the amount you pay for them. The bishop had a bigger hole in the plastic, but I don't feel like that is of much benifit in hide, muscle, fat tissue, wich has elastic tendencies. Very surprised by the heavy arrow, I would have thought it would have done as well or slightly better then the others.
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Old 02-12-2018, 06:49 PM   #54
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Might not be much of a benefit. Then again it might be.

The manufacturer claims as such, and they have lots of pictures & video to back up their claims. Me, I don't know. Haven't shot animal with one yet, but I sure hope to soon.

The point I was making is - the Bishop made the biggest hole, AND got the best penetration.

Not only was the hole at the center larger (sharp tanto point), but the slits of the blades were wider, and much more pronounced.

When I think about it, that kind of hole has to cause a great deal of leakage.

Oh and, I didn't forget what they cost.
They also have a lifetime warranty for structural failure of any kind.
I haven't lost but maybe two broadheads in all my years.
I've broken, bent, and otherwise destroyed a bunch of them.

By the way- Shoot The Barrel !!!!

Rick

EDIT:
Oh, and thanks for the additional tests Ellis.
Much appreciated Bro.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:59 PM   #55
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Tell you what, tough as that barrel is, I would think those 679-grain arrows would do fine on most game. No doubt they are slow from those bows from 20 yards, but they hit hard. I mean, they went well into that barrel. Plus, I would rather not shoot past 15 yards. That barrel plastic was so tough that it pulled the brass insert out of my arrow after I unscrewed the broadhead and was pulling the arrow back out from the 50# Pearson. For those arrows to penetrate over two feet through that plastic, to me, means they would have no problem on virtually any live game -- especially with a little bit of blood lubrication!

In case anybody wondered, Rick, this is the point of these tests, right? What will kill?

BTW, the 50# bow is a 60+ year old Ben Pearson Javelina my Dad bought in the early '60s. Shoots pretty well for bow that stood in the closet for about 40 years.

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Old 02-12-2018, 09:10 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tradtiger View Post
Tell you what, tough as that barrel is I would think those 679-grain arrows would do fine on most game. No doubt they are slow from those bows from 20 yards, but they hit hard. I mean, they went well into that barrel. Plus, I would rather not shoot past 15 yards. That barrel plastic was so tough that it pulled the brass insert out of my arrow after I unscrewed the broadhead and was pulling the arrow back out from the 50# Pearson. For those arrows to penetrate over two feet through that plastic, to me, means they would have no problem on virtually any live game -- especially with a little bit of blood lubrication!

In case anybody wondered, Rick, this is the point of these tests, right? What will kill?


I thought of it more of a way for folks to compare what they are using to what others are using. An educational thing (as it were).

Not trying to convince anyone to change, BUT they might see something they like, and move to it. Never know.

Rick
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Old 02-12-2018, 09:13 PM   #57
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You're quick, Rick. Edited in a little info on the 50 #er.
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Old 02-17-2018, 05:17 PM   #58
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What GPP do you consider to be the best?

At what point do you think arrow weight (in GPP) will start decreasing the amount of penetration, instead of increasing it?

Rick
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:44 PM   #59
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This video is with the same bow at the same distance as the first, but with a 966gr / 14 gpp / 30% FOC arrow.

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Resistance is resistance in whatever form it comes in, and it takes momentum to overcome it.

I believe I'll do my best to stick to "my" (And Old Fred's) 9.5 gpp rule, and if I want more horsepower I'll go up in both arrow weight & draw weight, while maintain that rule when doing it.

Rick
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:50 PM   #60
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Oh, and yes, I spent a lot of time making sure this puppy flew good. Spent all day building, changing, and rebuilding until I got it to this weight & FOC, then spent about 1.5 hours shooting, tuning, and getting used to the drop, which was quite a bit less, than what I thought it would be.

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Old 02-17-2018, 10:06 PM   #61
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Something note worthy is - this big old broadhead made a hole, that the shaft had very little drag resistance as it penetrated. It was almost an easy two finger removal from the barrel. ALL of the other shots were very hard to remove the arrow from the barrel.

Rick
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:25 PM   #62
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I have checked a feed store here but no one knows where I could find such a barrel.
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:29 PM   #63
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Well I finally picked up a barrel and shot this evening. Shaft was smashed in the end unfortunately

Anyhow, here's how it all came out.
Dryad Orion Longbow
67lbs@28" (I draw 27.5" so I'm guessing 65.5lbs or so).
Carbon express heritage 250 arrow with 100gr. brass insert, 2" aluminum footing, and 250gr VPA 2blade single bevel broadhead.
FOC 25.68%
10.68 gpp





Just under 7 1/2" hanging out. Don't know if it sucked much penetration out, but I didn't realize the barrel wasn't sitting very level. When the arrow hit, the barrel rocked quite a bit and the arrow was actually sticking in at a downward angle.


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Old 02-18-2018, 08:40 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineMan7 View Post
Well I finally picked up a barrel and shot this evening. Shaft was smashed in the end unfortunately

Anyhow, here's how it all came out.
Dryad Orion Longbow
67lbs@28" (I draw 27.5" so I'm guessing 65.5lbs or so).
Carbon express heritage 250 arrow with 100gr. brass insert, 2" aluminum footing, and 250gr VPA 2blade single bevel broadhead.
FOC 25.68%
10.68 gpp





Just under 7 1/2" hanging out. Don't know if it sucked much penetration out, but I didn't realize the barrel wasn't sitting very level. When the arrow hit, the barrel rocked quite a bit and the arrow was actually sticking in at a downward angle.


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Awesome, and Thanks !!!!!!

Rick
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:48 PM   #65
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P.S.
Really looking forward to seeing what your cape buff rig will do.

Rick
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:50 PM   #66
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Ole Buff ought to try it with his elephant rig!
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:57 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Ole Buff ought to try it with his elephant rig!
That would be a real treat.

Rick
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:05 PM   #68
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Got another one coming out the barrel backside.

That "you-finish" longbow that I got a couple of weeks ago is supposed to draw 70-75#@28". Thought it felt noticeably stiffer than my 70# Weathers recurve. Weighed both today on a hanging scale (with assistance of wife). Weathers bow = about 73#@28". Check, okay. The Ringing Rocks longbow comes in at 90#@28"!!!!

I knew it was kinda tough to string that baby, but ... Dang!

I'm reminded of Rick ordering a 76# Martin that turned out to be 98#.

Anyway, it shot the 679-grain arrow into and got about a third of the head out thr back of the barrel. And this was with very unstable flight by that 400 spine arrow.

Need to get some new arrows for sure to shoot through this thing. Really zips em, though.

Here's pics: (Btw, pic says 85# because that's the weight at my 27" DL)


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Old 02-19-2018, 12:26 PM   #69
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Awesome Ellis !!!

Rick
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:41 AM   #70
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rick, for years ive been doing this, only i shoot my metal burn barrel.
thru 1 side is ok, but if i can get penetration into the off side, i'm good to go.. have messed up so nice wood arrows over the years but its a good test..
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Old 02-22-2018, 01:01 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEFFRO View Post
rick, for years ive been doing this, only i shoot my metal burn barrel.
thru 1 side is ok, but if i can get penetration into the off side, i'm good to go.. have messed up so nice wood arrows over the years but its a good test..
Me too Jeff.

The thing I discovered is - the plastic barrel is actually harder to penetrate, but usually results in less damage to the arrow.

You gonna do one (or several) for us?

Rick
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:22 PM   #72
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I've had a bunch of requests to do an arrow test with something between 6 & 8 GPP.

This is as close as I could get, and still have a good arrow tune to the bow. 535 grain / 7.75 GPP / 21% FOC.

I still say Old Fred Bear had it right with his between 9 - 10 GPP analogy.

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Old 03-19-2018, 06:31 PM   #73
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Wow

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Old 03-19-2018, 06:45 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Wow

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Pretty eye opening, ain't it.

No way I'll ever go below 9 gpp on any bow less than 80# at my draw weight, and I'll never go over 10 gpp on any bow.

My heavy bows (96 & 98) I'll drop down to 6.5 gpp. That's still well over 600 grains of arrow, going real fast, but if ever going for big African dangerous game I would bump even these bows arrow weight up to between 9 & 10 gpp.

Rick
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:51 PM   #75
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Well that is pathetic. Now I have to rethink some things.

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Old 03-19-2018, 07:25 PM   #76
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Cool video.

My arrows are 10.56gpp and around 19% foc. My bow is only 43# right now as I get back into shooting after back surgery last year. I will eventually max it at 45# so that will change to 10.09gpp. I would have liked heavier but that is what tuned best for me right now.

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Old 03-19-2018, 07:36 PM   #77
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I built some arrows that fly great. Light front end, 12%+ foc, but I noticed they don't get as good of penetration on the target. I need to shoot a drum before I trim them and add weight up front though.

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Old 03-19-2018, 08:05 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
I built some arrows that fly great. Light front end, 12%+ foc, but I noticed they don't get as good of penetration on the target. I need to shoot a drum before I trim them and add weight up front though.

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12% FOC is plenty.
What GPP are your arrows?

Rick
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:18 PM   #79
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Quote:
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12% FOC is plenty.
What GPP are your arrows?

Rick
7.37 if my math is correct.

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Old 03-19-2018, 09:29 PM   #80
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Quote:
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7.37 if my math is correct.

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Yeah, that's pretty light weight for a hunting arrow, but would probably still work on deer. I know guys who kill deer with arrows that light, and pretty light weight bows, but I wouldn't do it.

One thing you have to keep in mind though is - these barrels are tough. There's not many animals, that will resist penetration as much.

BUT, if you get good barrel penetration you highly likely will get good penetration on any living creature for sure, and that's a good thing to know ahead of time.

Rick

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Old 03-19-2018, 09:44 PM   #81
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48lbs is a light draw to guys like you. To me it's almost as much as I wanna go.

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Old 03-19-2018, 10:08 PM   #82
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Arrow Total Weight (grains) 357.6

Arrow Specific Weight (GPP) 7.7

Front of Center (FOC) % 13.6

Arrow Speed (ft/sec) 212.5

Arrow Energy (ft-lbs) 35.8
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:09 PM   #83
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Quote:
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48lbs is a light draw to guys like you. To me it's almost as much as I wanna go.

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And that's plenty for what you'll be hunting around here.

A 450 to 480 grain arrow out of that Tall Tines will be plenty fast, and will give you pretty good penetration.

Even a 500 grain will work well at 10.4 gpp, but I wouldn't go any heavier than that if it were me using it.

Rick

Last edited by RickBarbee; 03-19-2018 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Don't know why I called it a Silver Tip
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:14 PM   #84
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Arrow Total Weight (grains) 410.4

Arrow Specific Weight (GPP) 8.6

Front of Center (FOC) % 21

Arrow Speed (ft/sec) 200.7

Arrow Energy (ft-lbs) 36.6

This is where I'm at with the Tall Tines.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:14 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Arrow Total Weight (grains) 357.6

Arrow Specific Weight (GPP) 7.7

Front of Center (FOC) % 13.6

Arrow Speed (ft/sec) 212.5

Arrow Energy (ft-lbs) 35.8
My 640 grain arrows are averaging 207 fps.

The 535 is considerable faster than that. I figure over 220, and you saw here how much less penetration it got.

If you watch the other videos you will see, that the heavier (over 10 gpp) also penetrated less.

I am convinced, that being between 9 & 10 gpp is the sweet spot.

Rick
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:23 PM   #86
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I could easily trim back the arrow an inch and a half, drop another 50 grains up front and get this. Slightly slower but maybe a better combination. I can still run the 100 grain heads I want to up front with some 50 grain inserts weights added. This is on my Widow.
Arrow Total Weight (grains) 396.5

Arrow Specific Weight (GPP) 8.6

Front of Center (FOC) % 18.6

Arrow Speed (ft/sec) 201

Arrow Energy (ft-lbs) 35.5
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Old 03-20-2018, 07:39 AM   #87
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I have a 300gr Bishop head, that I had forgot about.

With it I can get an 11 gpp arrow built up & tuned to shoot the barrel.

Stand by for news.

Rick
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Old 03-20-2018, 08:54 AM   #88
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BOW:
Sarrels Blueridge takedown R/D longbow 50#@29"

Arrow:
Easton Axis Full Metal Jacket .400 spine 31.5"

Total arrow weight = 563gr
GPP = 11.3
FOC = 18.6%
Speed = 165-170fps (have not chrono'ed in a while)
Energy = 36.2 ft-lbs

That arrow melts thru critters like a hot knife thru butter!

Last year, I actually tried to go back to 10.0GPP by switching to a .500 spine FMJ. I shoot a lot of 3D, and my thinking was that the lighter shaft would help me out at the longer 3D shots, while still being plenty heavy enough to hunt with. Got it all tuned up and flying great. Because it was lighter weight, I got a bit more speed out of it. Then I went hunting. Shot 2 critters with that setup. Both were less than stellar as far as penetration goes. Both of those could have been just coincidental, but I lost confidence in the set up and went back to the heavier arrows, and have not looked back! I do believe, that no matter what setup a guy settles on, s*** happens every once in a while, and things will not turn out as planned from time to time.

Bisch

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Old 03-20-2018, 09:13 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisch View Post
BOW:
Sarrels Blueridge takedown R/D longbow 50#@29"

Arrow:
Easton Axis Full Metal Jacket .400 spine 31.5"

Total arrow weight = 563gr
GPP = 11.3
FOC = 18.6%
Speed = 165-170fps (have not chrono'ed in a while)
Energy = 36.2 ft-lbs

That arrow melts thru critters like a hot knife thru butter!

Last year, I actually tried to go back to 10.0GPP by switching to a .500 spine FMJ. I shoot a lot of 3D, and my thinking was that the lighter shaft would help me out at the longer 3D shots, while still being plenty heavy enough to hunt with. Got it all tuned up and flying great. Because it was lighter weight, I got a bit more speed out of it. Then I went hunting. Shot 2 critters with that setup. Both were less than stellar as far as penetration goes. Both of those could have been just coincidental, but I lost confidence in the set up and went back to the heavier arrows, and have not looked back! I do believe, that no matter what setup a guy settles on, s*** happens every once in a while, and things will not turn out as planned from time to time.

Bisch
I sure would like to see the difference of those two different arrows shot into the barrel.

I just finished building a 760gr (11.01 gpp) 21% foc arrow for my bow. I'll probably get it shot sometime this afternoon.

Rick
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:43 AM   #90
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Confidence is as big a part of the equation as all the other factors!!!!

Bisch
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:09 AM   #91
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Rick:
If you put that same 300-grain Bishop, adding a 100-grain insert, on a 400-spine carbon and shoot it out of your 68-lb bow, you'll have a 10 gpp test. But it's already been done and shown in post 26. That's almost exactly what my set-up is with the 680-grain Warrior and Tuffhead combo, when shot out of the Weathers bow at 69 lbs with my draw length.

Looking forward to what 11 gpp does with your set-up.

Might notice, by the way that the same 680-grain arrow shot from my 50- and 55-lb bows penetrated almost all the way to the back side of the barrel, although they didn't stick in or exit the back side. Still had something like two feet of penetration. That arrow would be 13.6 gpp on the 50-lber and 12.36 gpp on the 55-lb bow. 'Course, from those lighter bows, you can time it with a calendar....
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:22 AM   #92
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I just put together some arrows to try with the Tall Tines. They flew excellent. 30.25" Black Eagle 400 spine with 175 grains up front.
Arrow Total Weight (grains) 490.3

Arrow Specific Weight (GPP) 10.3

Front of Center (FOC) % 17.7

Arrow Speed (ft/sec) 183.4

Arrow Energy (ft-lbs) 36.6

I need to go to work. Got two lifts to work on but now I want to get out an old barrel and . . .
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:08 AM   #93
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Well here it is.21 yards. First is with the 175 grain Wenzel three blade. Penetration was a lot less than I expected.
Second was the Grizz Stick single bevel also in 175. Much better penetration.
Both arrows were tough to get out.
55 gallon drum from one of those old feeders.

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Old 03-20-2018, 11:24 AM   #94
DirtyDave
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Anyone know where I can get free 30 gallon barrels around Decatur?
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:51 AM   #95
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Well I tried some 27.5" 500 spine with 175 grain heads out of the Tall Tines. Penetration results were similar and flight was good with the heads as well. First shot with the Griz hit the raised ridge on the barrel so I shot it again to how much difference it would make. Not a lot.
A little better with the Woodsman head though.
Arrow Total Weight (grains) 447.9

Arrow Specific Weight (GPP) 9.4

Front of Center (FOC) % 19.4

Arrow Speed (ft/sec) 191.9

Arrow Energy (ft-lbs) 36.6

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Last edited by DRT; 03-20-2018 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:57 AM   #96
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Then tried the Widow with the light arrows with 100 grain heads. The three were a Thunderhead, a Carbon Express head and a used Rage Hypodermic.
The Rage literally bounced of and straight back 13 yards. Broke one blade and only penetrated the pointy tip.
The other two penetrated. Sorta.



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Old 03-20-2018, 11:58 AM   #97
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By the way arrow removal was very easy on these.

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Old 03-20-2018, 11:59 AM   #98
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Just for giggles I shot it with a field point with that set up. Arrow removal was not easy.

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Old 03-20-2018, 03:30 PM   #99
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Here's a shot from 90-lb longbow (more like 85 @my 27" drawlength), shooting an 11/32" cedar arrow weighing 806 grains.
About 10" into barrel using 300 grain single bevel Tuffhead (225-gr. head + 75-gr. adapter).


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Old 03-20-2018, 03:39 PM   #100
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This is a shot from the same longbow above, using a 340 spine Beman carbon arrow weighing 635 grains, resulting in almost 17" penetration of barrel.


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