Arrow penatration problems

[Pushbutton2]

Muddy, enewman, bowhunttxn, Should I/we post a link to our other thread?

[rocky]

What numbers do,you want. What I listed on the hogs is real world numbers. Not dr ashby. The .56 momentum up to .63 momentum I'm writing about is all experiance. All on hogs from 125 to 180 lb All with 3/4 to 1 in shields and all shot threw the shoulders. One of the hogs was a even threw the spine.

Most everything I post about arrows is first hand. Not what I've read. Yes I have built arrows from dr ashby writings. And I shoot them arrows.

Through out all my post one thing I always repeat. This is not the gospel. Lots and lots of animals are killed with lite and fast arrows. That is all I used to shoot my self. I changed when I lost a nice buck with a shoulder hit and no penetration.

I would never doubt you rocky, but the hog I shot the other day. If shot in the same place I shot. No way your wife's arrow would have gone threw this hog.

Rocky please do not take my comments to you as disrespectful. I'm not on here To do that.

These post are do to people posting about bad penetration problems and Im just giving real world numbers and reasons that this could possibly be happening to them.

I think the Ashby "stuff" is about as real world as it can get. You simply can not dispute that an arrow with higher FOC makes more use of an equal amount of fletching. Nor would it be advisable to contradict the merit of a high ratio head due to its pronounced mechanical advantage. Likewise that a high FOC arrow makes better uses of an arrow's energy upon impact. These are basic facts driven by the very laws of physics, you know like Newton's law and all that jazz. Those guys shot a tremendous amount of game in that study, it is the most comprehensive body of work in the history of bow hunting concerning terminal projectile performance, that's not really up for debate.

The only thing I can tell you is since I have personally been shooting an arrow with some engineering behind it:
1) I have recovered 100% of the animals I have attempted a shot on in the last two years (1 whitetail buck, 1 whitetail doe, 1 axis buck and 7 hogs).
2) The three deer resulted in a net tracking job of 40 yds.
3) I have had pass through on all animals except the whitetail buck, he was shot with a NAP Spitfire (mechanical), all other animals were taken with fixed blade heads.
4) my long range accuracy (50+ yds) has increased

I think its good stuff, so do growing contingent of folks that are becoming educated on the subject matter. We are talking about stacking the odds in your favor, we all need some help sometimes right? Ever made a bad shot? I know I have....... I always hear all this stuff about shot placement.......its all about shot placement, but last time I checked Levi Morgan isn't a TBH member and I don't shoot for Elite. When everything goes right we can all be lethal on a cape buffalo shooting a 50#, but that's not really the case is it. Everybody wants to shoot a head that looks like someone threw a rake through and animal. You can quote me on this, and I have said it many times on this forum. I don't build arrows for the great shots, I build them for the times when things don't go my way.

Like I said, my post was just keeping things in perspective.
The faster arrow 'punch' plays a role in penetration, as does FOC, momentum, and K.E,.

On whitetail deer, and the average hog, penetration is rarely the issue.
Shot placement trumps everything.
I'm glad that y'all experiment, ...... someone needs to, but in most cases, arrow weight, FOC, and momentum, are the least factors to consider when killing animals.
I've never said anything y'all post is wrong, just that there are other factors involved, and other success stories.

[muddyfuzzy]

Muddy, enewman, bowhunttxn, Should I/we post a link to our other thread?

No, I think most folks have seen it.....at least know it exists. There is truth to what Rocky is saying, there is no silver bullet. All of these things matter, some more than others but they all still matter. I subscribe to the compounding approach to arrow building, that is doing everything I can to make an arrow an more accurate and efficient killing tool. I don't shoot an extreme set-up in terms of weight; however, most guys running around with 22% EFOC are shooting 600+ grain arrows and I'm well under that. I get a flatter arrow that's still pretty hot, that is forgiving and penetrates anything on the continent.......even in a less than ideal shot. Its all about spreading the knowledge around, helping each other and learning along the way........I think collectively we get it right.

[enewman]

Yes there are a lot of other factors. But the main part of this post was that another op stated he did not understand why his arrow did not penetrate with him having 69 ke

This is where the market for archry has done a dicredit. Everywhere the charts list what k.e. Is needed to kill certain animals. This is what is told to most everyone that walks through a bow shop. So,it's understandable that he doesn't under stand that the ke requires to shoot a Cape buffalo did not penetrate an Illinois white tail deer.

This is the whole ideal of forums like this. People can come and get info,and learn. Some day archers will understand momentum and that KE has nothing to do with an arrows potential. Heck I've just got to this point in the last two to three years and I've been hunting for 15 plus years.

There are people that will shoot an arrow that is 5.5 gn per inch through out there hunting life and that is all they know and it works.

There are others that strive to better there selfs and there ability to kill and recover animals even with a bad shot.

All I'm doing is offering help,from my real world experiance and hope it will Help some of the people.

[rocky]

Muddy, enewman, bowhunttxn, Should I/we post a link to our other thread?

No, I think most folks have seen it.....at least know it exists. There is truth to what Rocky is saying, there is no silver bullet. All of these things matter, some more than others but they all still matter. I subscribe to the compounding approach to arrow building, that is doing everything I can to make an arrow an more accurate and efficient killing tool. I don't shoot an extreme set-up in terms of weight; however, most guys running around with 22% EFOC are shooting 600+ grain arrows and I'm well under that. I get a flatter arrow that's still pretty hot, that is forgiving and penetrates anything on the continent.......even in a less than ideal shot. Its all about spreading the knowledge around, helping each other and learning along the way........I think collectively we get it right.

Yes there are a lot of other factors. But the main part of this post was that another op stated he did not understand why his arrow did not penetrate with him having 69 ke

This is where the market for archry has done a dicredit. Everywhere the charts list what k.e. Is needed to kill certain animals. This is what is told to most everyone that walks through a bow shop. So,it's understandable that he doesn't under stand that the ke requires to shoot a Cape buffalo did not penetrate an Illinois white tail deer.

This is the whole ideal of forums like this. People can come and get info,and learn. Some day archers will understand momentum and that KE has nothing to do with an arrows potential. Heck I've just got to this point in the last two to three years and I've been hunting for 15 plus years.

There are people that will shoot an arrow that is 5.5 gn per inch through out there hunting life and that is all they know and it works.

There are others that strive to better there selfs and there ability to kill and recover animals even with a bad shot.

All I'm doing is offering help,from my real world experiance and hope it will Help some of the people.

I simply want to express that those who shoot other than "Ashby perfect",.. can kill.

[enewman]

I simply want to express that those who shoot other than "Ashby perfect",.. can kill.

Yes they can.

[rocky]

Yes they can.

All this being said, keep in mind that Ashby conducted most of his tests with a Trad bow, at 50 Lbs or less.
A compound bow takes arrows to another realm.
Just keeping things in perspective.

[TEXAS 10PT]

I'll keep shooting what works for me. 600gr finished arrow with a 185gr 1 7/8" cut hatchet on the end and watch em fall. Great thread enewman

[enewman]

All this being said, keep in mind that Ashby conducted most of his tests with a Trad bow, at 50 Lbs or less.
A compound bow takes arrows to another realm.
Just keeping things in perspective.

Yes he did. I believe in his later writings he also had testing with compounds. But some times the old timers with there ideals and products still work. Just like the Broadhead I shoot. Built and design in 1938 Zwickey

[hoyt21]

Muddy is right I've shot 4 animals with high foc arrows all were short trails and complete pass throughs. One arrow flew so fast and hard through the deer I don't know where it ended up. This is with only 16% foc

[rocky]

I'll keep shooting what works for me. 600gr finished arrow with a 185gr 1 7/8" cut hatchet on the end and watch em fall. Great thread enewman

Cool!!
My wife most likely will keep shooing her 290 grain arrow with an 85 grain Slick Trick @ 42 lbs with a 25 inch draw.
(Assuming shot placement is good)

[DuckDogTrainer]

How much difference do you think the small diameter arrow versus the standard diameter makes? Any testing to verify?

[enewman]

How much difference do you think the small diameter arrow versus the standard diameter makes? Any testing to verify?

On size of shaft. I have no idea. I know Dr ashby has tested this and says there is a differance. All the manufactures that make and sales them tell you there is. Of course.

So on this matter I can not give real world numbers.

Now just looking at it. And looking at the mechanics of the design there has to be some difference. But as long as the broadhead makes a hole bigger then the shaft I don't see that it matters for the penetration.

I would think the advantage of a small shaft would be less wind catch on a side wind. Do to less surface area, but when the dealers talk about that they never bring up the vanes that are still the same size or the broadhead that are the same size. So even then it might not matter on the diameter of the shaft at that point either.

[enewman]

Rocky. On this post it looks like I kinda of ambushed you a little. That is not how I I meant to come across. What I need to remember is this forum is for helping and opinions. And you have yours and I have mine. Course I'm always right haha. So don't stop posting. On what works for you. This is how we learn. This is no differance then me and muddy. We have mostly the same thoughts but I still like arrows at that 500 mark and muddy can build high foc arrows in that 450 range.

With me being a short draw and shooting lots of hogs I can see the differance in lite vs heavy arrows. So with me shooting same head and all being the same other then weight I can calculate the momentum I have have numbers that I can use as a reference point.

it's like dr ashby. He states that .57 momentum will break a zebra bone. That's all fine and dandy. But for me and my set up on big hogs with shields in that 1 inch thick area I cannot get an arrow at .56 mometum to have a complete pass thru. Course I do shoot through the shoulders. But my arrow that is .63 will do a complete pass.
One thing else to remember a pass thru also depends on how that animal reacts. If he flexes just right he can catch that arrow and it will stop.

[Pushbutton2]

If you look at the info posted on Alaska Bowhunter dot com, there are some key design elements that aid in penetration.

Here are some of them the top of my head as I understand them.
Smooth transition from broadhead to ferrule to arrow shaft.
The diameter of the broadhead should be larger or equal to the diameter of the ferrule.
The diameter of the arrow shaft should no larger than the diameter of the ferrule.

The Grizzly Stik arrow design was inspired by Dr Ashby's study.
It's a tapered design. The nock end being smaller.

So with all that bring said.
The benefits, less drag, using a small diameter arrow make sense.
But that's only part of the total package