Form issue(elbow too high)

[Deb]

Thanks for the input guys. Some good stuff to think about and work on. If it weren't for the fact that the tail end of the arrow is hitting the outside edge of the shelf, I wouldn't worry about it.

Yeah when I shot that buck I didn't know all this was going on, or what was going on. I noticed the wear on the outisde edge of the shelf but didn't think anything about it. I was just concentrating on shooting the best I could before going hunting. Now that I know, I've lost confidence. And that aint good.

Thanks again
Matt

No need to lose confidence. I have seen Todd shoot with his elbow much higer than in the posted pic and he shoots fine. As he once informed my husband "form is form". I personaly line it up like Moe said.

[Wayne Meuir]

The wear on the outside of the shelf could also be related to incorrect arrow spine.

I would think that drawing with your elbow that high would create a huge callous on the bottom of your ring finger because of the angle of the string.

Wayne

[Trick]

I used the bare shaft planning method until bareshafts and fletched shafts hit together. Granted bare shafts are hitting with nock high. I'm currently using Ace broadheads and they are hitting with my field tips.

No callous on my ring finger, nor is it ever sore. But I have a good callous developing on the inside of my index finger next to the nail.

In "Masters of the bare bow Part 2" Ken Beck talks about what a high elbow does, but never talks about how to fix it. He just say he runs into people with this problem and talks about how the arrow reacts, which is what I'm seeing.

Maybe it's time for a coach. Anybody willing to swing by and give me some coaching lessons? I'll feed you a big steak dinner with the beverage of you choice?

Matt

[bob sarrels]

Wear on the outside of your shelf is not caused by the high elbow. It is a spine problem. As far as the problem with your index finger it is probably due to using a metal nock. That is on reason I use string nocks. The other is that it does not wear out my glove as fast as a metal nock. You should really make a valiant effort at lining your arm up with the arrow. Not only will this cause digging problems with the string, it causes you to use your shoulder muscle to draw the bow instead of the muscles in your back. Back tension is critical in trad form. Work with it and it will come. I have had several form problems in the many years I have done this sport and altho difficult, they can be overcome. Good luck.

[Trick]

Thanks for the reply. Is there another/better method to determine the correct spin than the Planning method? From my finished arrow I can add weight up front and show an under spine condition or decrease weight and show an over spine condition using the Planning method.

Bow is a 49#@28". I'm pulling right at 28" last time I measured. Arrows are Goldtip 3555 Traditional shafts cut to 28 1/2"(measured from groove of nock to end of carbon), 100gr brass insert with 200gr tips. 4" feathers, no wraps. Total weight is 565gr.

I do use a string nock, top and bottom, with the arrows nock slightly loose in between. Maybe I made it too large. ??? I'll try a smaller one.

Thanks again,
Matt

[Ol Man]

Matt,

Try this out - I have seen it work for many others. Put your bow up as if to shoot. Put only a small amount of tension on the string as you align your bow and body to your target. The bow and body should be as if you have already come to full draw...Now draw SLOWLY straight back until you hit anchor. The trick here is slow!!!! If you draw fast it will cause your elbow to shoot up and away from your shoulder. Also remember to draw through your shot! From what you described it is not a spine problem but a combo of the above and also trying to get the string out of your fingers. If you use back tension at release your string hand will pull through past your ear.

[Deb]

where is Blue Ridge?

[Trick]

Dang Ol Man! That did it. Not sure how, but that got it down. I just tried this in front of a mirror to my wifes horror, and I can keep my draw arm level thru out the draw cycle. I had to change my head position a bit to match up with the hand, which I believe goes in hand with what Moe said earlier. I think I can work with this. Thank you very much Ol Man, and thanks for all the help. I'm not saying I'm cured, but I think I'm well on my way. I just need some daylight to go out and shoot some.

Deb, Blue Ridge is northeast of Dallas about 40-50 miles.

Thanks,
Matt

[El Paisano]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
Concerning the back of the hand. The idea is to keep the back of the hand, the bow, and the string parallel...all in the same line.
When the back of the hand is not aligned, usually it is the top finger that is putting more pressure on the string and arrow. This results in abnormal loading of the limbs, poor arrow flight, a sore first finger (around the cuticle), etc.
Misalignment of the back of the hand is frequently as result of a high elbow.

To see the effect, use the web of your bow hand as a pivot point and do not grasp the bow handle, pull back on the string and rotate your string hand while watching the effect on the bow.

Sounds like you are on your way to recovery.

[rubydog]

Anything that takes the arm out of line is less than right. A high elbow is usually a sign of being over bowed. It can also eventually cause shoulder damage. Your arrow & arm need to be one straight line. I've met many guys who have poor form, but still shoot pretty good. They would shoot even better & be able to shoot longer if they would correct their form.

I guess you never paid attention to Keith Bain. His drawing hand and elbow were all over the place. His bow arm was another story. You could hang an anvil on his arm. You and I both know there was never a day we could out shoot him..

[Trick]

No problem, thanks for the reply. I have my elbow down now, but I'm still feeling it in my index finger, right at the cuticle as you mentioned. If the back of my hand is parallel to the string, could that be due to the fact that it's a 58" bow and the string angle is tight?

Another question, should I have equal tention on all three fingers?

In thinking thru this, if its not a form issue, and my arrows are spinned correctly, then I have a nock travel issue. Tiller not correct? So I added 3 sets of string silencers to the upper part of the string to see if slowing the top down a bit would reduce the nock travel. Interesting enough, it made a difference. It's still hitting the outside edge of the shelf, but not as much as before. Next I'm going to try building up the shelf to see if that helps. ???

Ultimately, I think it comes down to a form issue, or even maybe a spine issue as Mr. Sarrels mentioned. I just dont know of a better way to determine correct spin than the Planning method.

Thanks,
Matt

[Deb]

Get with some of the good shooters in your area and let them check out your form and equipment. It will save you a lot of guess work and agravation.

[moe monsarrat]

Deb, you & I both know Bain is a freak. He doesn't even practice for a year & picks up his bow and wins the world championship. Regular rules don't apply to someone like that. Howard Hill was left eye dominant & shot right handed. What're you gonna do? BTW I did beat him once. Only once. He beat me many times. That don't make his lack of form something to try to teach somebody either. If you practice a lot with form that can damage you, it will probably happen at some point. I shot a LOT of arrows using 65# bows. Eventually I developed tendonitis in my bow arm. It caused me to shoot differently & drop weight. I modified my form to the correct way & my problems went away. I was pretty accurate even w/my poor form, I just paid the price for it. No need for that. Let's face it, Keith Bain is a freak of nature. Sure, you can overcome bad form and shoot pretty good but I wouldn't preach that method.

[Deb]

Don't ya just really dislike people like that? I am left eye dominate and shoot right handed. I'd never preach bad form. I remember you, Moe, from the very first tournament I ever went to.

[equin]

Matt,

Try this out - I have seen it work for many others. Put your bow up as if to shoot. Put only a small amount of tension on the string as you align your bow and body to your target. The bow and body should be as if you have already come to full draw...Now draw SLOWLY straight back until you hit anchor. The trick here is slow!!!! If you draw fast it will cause your elbow to shoot up and away from your shoulder. Also remember to draw through your shot! From what you described it is not a spine problem but a combo of the above and also trying to get the string out of your fingers. If you use back tension at release your string hand will pull through past your ear.

Dang Ol Man! That did it. Not sure how, but that got it down. I just tried this in front of a mirror to my wifes horror, and I can keep my draw arm level thru out the draw cycle. I had to change my head position a bit to match up with the hand, which I believe goes in hand with what Moe said earlier. I think I can work with this. Thank you very much Ol Man, and thanks for all the help. I'm not saying I'm cured, but I think I'm well on my way. I just need some daylight to go out and shoot some.

I'm going to have to try this, as I also have a high elbow. Last night, as much as I tried, I couldn't draw with the elbow parallel. I noticed, though, that if I draw past my cheek bone and more towards my ear, using as much back tension as I could muster, my elbow was able to drop. But I wasn't drawing slowly as Ol Man suggested, or perhaps not slowly enough. This was with a 35# longbow. So I take it the trick is to draw really, really slow?