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Old 09-22-2020, 08:34 PM   #1
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About to put some arrows together for my son. Beman ics Hunters 400, gonna start @ 29Ē, 100gr insert, 100gr head & a Nocturnal. This puts the arrow at 491gr 16.5% Foc. Shooting out of his Dna @ 48# 26.5Ē dl. Not the Foc I wanted but Iím gonna start there & see how the fly. Probably gonna run Wacíem 3 blades. Sound like a good setup to yíall???


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Old 09-22-2020, 08:48 PM   #2
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No.
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Old 09-22-2020, 09:21 PM   #3
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No.

Well thanks there buddy.
Mind telling me why & throw a few pointers out there??


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Old 09-22-2020, 09:42 PM   #4
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Well thanks there buddy.
Mind telling me why & throw a few pointers out there??


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Iíve worked up setups for hundreds, if not thousands of bowhunters. Long draws, short draws, high poundage, and low poundage. The worst setup is an extremely slow arrow, and that is what youíre building. My wife has a 25Ē dL, shoots mid 40s poundage, and typically has no issue penetrating whitetails. You can follow the high foc , heavy crowd if you are inclined. I simply donít agree. My wifeís arrow weighs 290 grains.
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Old 09-23-2020, 12:07 PM   #5
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How slow is extremely slow??


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Old 09-23-2020, 12:10 PM   #6
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It sounds good to me. I've found higher foc setups cut wind better on lower poundage than "high" speed arrows with same setups.
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Old 09-23-2020, 12:18 PM   #7
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I agree with Hoover especially at lower poundage. It doesn't matter if the arrow gets there "fast" if it can't penetrate. I'm fortunate to have a longer draw and high poundage and will still pick a heavy and high FOC everytime. Go on youtube and look up Ranch Fairy, the guy is kinda crazy but he uses lots of data to prove the worth of high FOC and heavy arrows
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:01 PM   #8
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I though I was getting pretty good speeds.
Beman Ics Hunter
491gr @ 217fps w/ 16.5% Foc
.47m
51Ke
Or
BluRz
448gr @ 231fps w/ 17.6% Foc
.45m
53Ke


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Old 09-23-2020, 01:24 PM   #9
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RF literally just put out this video 2 days ago.


Don't be afraid to tinker. haters gonna hate lol
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:32 PM   #10
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If you cut the arrows 3" shorter and used a 125 grain head you would have the same weight and a higher FOC.

Only thing I would change would be using a cut on contact head something like a Magnus Black Hornet or Stingers with bleeders. They will penetrate better than the 3 blade Wac'ems .
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Abu_dude View Post
RF literally just put out this video 2 days ago.

Short Draw Length Solution l Ranch Fairy - YouTube

Don't be afraid to tinker. haters gonna hate lol

Iíll check it out


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Old 09-23-2020, 01:47 PM   #12
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If you cut the arrows 3" shorter and used a 125 grain head you would have the same weight and a higher FOC.

Only thing I would change would be using a cut on contact head something like a Magnus Black Hornet or Stingers with bleeders. They will penetrate better than the 3 blade Wac'ems .

Iíll try this also. Iíve got some 125gr buzzcuts & Solids


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Old 09-23-2020, 08:52 PM   #13
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Iíve worked up setups for hundreds, if not thousands of bowhunters. Long draws, short draws, high poundage, and low poundage. The worst setup is an extremely slow arrow, and that is what youíre building. My wife has a 25Ē dL, shoots mid 40s poundage, and typically has no issue penetrating whitetails. You can follow the high foc , heavy crowd if you are inclined. I simply donít agree. My wifeís arrow weighs 290 grains.
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I though I was getting pretty good speeds.
Beman Ics Hunter
491gr @ 217fps w/ 16.5% Foc
.47m
51Ke
Or
BluRz
448gr @ 231fps w/ 17.6% Foc
.45m
53Ke


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In my opinion, these speeds are extremely slow. No ďpunchĒ factor. Iíve used several mediums to try and determine penetration, and my conclusion is that a good flying arrow with some speed is best for the low poundage short draw archer. No matter the bow, a deer is going to react to the shot. Slower arrows will miss more than a faster arrow. There is a middle of the road speed and arrow weight that each individual shooter can get to, that increases their chances of hitting where they aim. Lindy has killed over 40 buck deer, from our backyard, to Kansas, and the only issues she has encountered were from shot placement. Iíve had to clean the deer to retrieve her arrows. You do you, and shoot your numbers, and calculations, but keep in mind, all these numbers donít kill deer. Shot placement kills deer.
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:01 PM   #14
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all these numbers donít kill deer. Shot placement kills deer.

And because you arenít perfect, Thatís why you build a plan B arrow


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Old 09-23-2020, 09:11 PM   #15
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And because you arenít perfect, Thatís why you build a plan B arrow


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You do know that the bones on a whitetail that will prevent arrow penetration are not in front of the vitals donít you? Unless you take a stupid shot.
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:12 PM   #16
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You do know that the bones on a whitetail that will prevent arrow penetration are not in front of the vitals donít you? Unless you take a stupid shot.

So you hit the vitals on every animal you shoot at? Youíre a much better shot than I am!


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Old 09-23-2020, 09:32 PM   #17
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So you hit the vitals on every animal you shoot at? You’re a much better shot than I am!


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Never said that. Read my post. I’ve taken shots I shouldn’t have. I’ve missed the vitals. I said that if I hit a bone that stopped my arrow, the vitals weren’t behind that bone unless I took a stupid shot.
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:45 PM   #18
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Never said that. Read my post. Iíve taken shots I shouldnít have. Iíve missed the vitals. I said that if I hit a bone that stopped my arrow, the vitals werenít behind that bone unless I took a stupid shot.

Rocky Iím just giving you a hard time. I know the FOC argument could go on for days. Iíve drank the cool-aid. Iíve read Dr. Ashbyís studies (At least a large majority of it). Itís not a perfect science but it IS a science! Their is data to back the claims. Canít say the same for the speed side. There is 0 data to support speed claims, just ďshooter experienceĒ. To each their own.


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Old 09-23-2020, 10:14 PM   #19
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Rocky Iím just giving you a hard time. I know the FOC argument could go on for days. Iíve drank the cool-aid. Iíve read Dr. Ashbyís studies (At least a large majority of it). Itís not a perfect science but it IS a science! Their is data to back the claims. Canít say the same for the speed side. There is 0 data to support speed claims, just ďshooter experienceĒ. To each their own.


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I really donít understand why youíre giving me a hard time. You say that speed has zero data. If you shoot a slow arrow, your yardage estimation has to be more precise. If you shoot a slow arrow, you have to interpret the animalís mood more precisely. These are unknowns in a lot of situations. Speed has the ability to overcome ( in part) a portion of these unknowns. Iím simply giving my opinion based on experience. Is experience no longer viable due to ďdataĒ?
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:17 PM   #20
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Everything Rocky said. Y’all Ranch Fairy folks need to spend the time practicing that you spend listening to that crap.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:32 PM   #21
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I think rocky has a good point as far as animal reaction and distance estimates. If you knocked off another 48 gr and had a 400 gr arrow you might be able to get your speed up to 250-265 which isnít necessarily slow. A 400gr arrow with a sharp broadhead that is tuned will do the trick just as well and give you a better margin of error.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:32 PM   #22
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Everything Rocky said. Yíall Ranch Fairy folks need to spend the time practicing that you spend listening to that crap.

lol I shoot more than enough. My point is why put yourself at a mechanical disadvantage before you even release the arrow?


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Old 09-23-2020, 10:37 PM   #23
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lol I shoot more than enough. My point is why put yourself at a mechanical disadvantage before you even release the arrow?


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If the animal is gone by the time the arrow gets there then nothing else matters. Iíd say that a heavy arrow moving slow is a physical disadvantage.

Before I get flamed Iím a heavy arrow guy, but my setup allows me to do that at high speeds.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:41 PM   #24
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I really donít understand why youíre giving me a hard time. You say that speed has zero data. If you shoot a slow arrow, your yardage estimation has to be more precise. If you shoot a slow arrow, you have to interpret the animalís mood more precisely. These are unknowns in a lot of situations. Speed has the ability to overcome ( in part) a portion of these unknowns. Iím simply giving my opinion based on experience. Is experience no longer viable due to ďdataĒ?

I shoot a 600gn arrow now and a 400gn arrow before. I shoot a single pin sight and donít have a shot over 35yds. I donít interpret the animal any different than I did before. As a matter of fact, a get less reaction out of an animal at further distances because the shot isnít as loud. The extra 200gn of weight deadens the bow more than you would think.

And to answer your question honestly, No, experience isnít a viable data source when comparing it to actual hard data (numbers).


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Old 09-23-2020, 10:46 PM   #25
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If the animal is gone by the time the arrow gets there then nothing else matters. Iíd say that a heavy arrow moving slow is a physical disadvantage.

Before I get flamed Iím a heavy arrow guy, but my setup allows me to do that at high speeds.

We arenít shooting 100yds here. Weíre talking out 40yds and in. The measurable difference in time it takes a heavy arrow versus a light arrow to arrive at the target is less than a finger snap.


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Old 09-23-2020, 10:47 PM   #26
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Drink that kool aid. Lol
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:48 PM   #27
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I shoot a 600gn arrow now and a 400gn arrow before. I shoot a single pin sight and donít have a shot over 35yds. I donít interpret the animal any different than I did before. As a matter of fact, a get less reaction out of an animal at further distances because the shot isnít as loud. The extra 200gn of weight deadens the bow more than you would think.

And to answer your question honestly, No, experience isnít a viable data source when comparing it to actual hard data (numbers).


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First, I donít care what bow you shoot, with a 600 grain arrow, if youíre shooting a single pin sight, at some point, youíre guessing the yardage. You are either holding over, or under. Second, you are already touting youíre experience, rather than relying on data. A faster arrow is a flatter shooting arrow.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:53 PM   #28
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We arenít shooting 100yds here. Weíre talking out 40yds and in. The measurable difference in time it takes a heavy arrow versus a light arrow to arrive at the target is less than a finger snap.


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So youíre saying speed doesnít matter at all? That a 300fps arrow will impact the same spot as an arrow traveling 200fps if a deer drops like they tend to do?

Lol yíall have a nice night, Iím not arguing this one again all night.

Op good luck and Iím sure you will do your own testing and come up with your own decisions.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:56 PM   #29
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First, I donít care what bow you shoot, with a 600 grain arrow, if youíre shooting a single pin sight, at some point, youíre guessing the yardage. You are either holding over, or under. Second, you are already touting youíre experience, rather than relying on data. A faster arrow is a flatter shooting arrow.

I had hold over with the lighter arrows as well. Of course a faster arrow is flatter shooting, thatís simple physics. However, yíall are acting like we are talking about shooting a long bow vs a 70lb compound. Iím talking about a 70lb bow pushing an arrow thatís 200gn heavier at 20-30yds. Your time differences are in the fractions of a second.


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Old 09-23-2020, 11:01 PM   #30
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So youíre saying speed doesnít matter at all? That a 300fps arrow will impact the same spot as an arrow traveling 200fps if a deer drops like they tend to do?

Lol yíall have a nice night, Iím not arguing this one again all night.

Op good luck and Iím sure you will do your own testing and come up with your own decisions.

Absolutely not, a 300fps arrow will not impact the same spot. Iím saying yíall are talking a arrow traveling 20yds!!!! How much of a physical drop in the arrow do you think there is at 20yds if you shot both side by side!? Your talking about less than inch...


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Old 09-23-2020, 11:06 PM   #31
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Absolutely not, a 300fps arrow will not impact the same spot. Iím saying yíall are talking a arrow traveling 20yds!!!! How much of a physical drop in the arrow do you think there is at 20yds if you shot both side by side!? Your talking about less than inch...


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Depending on DL, and poundage, I could be a lot more than that. Youíre simply basing this statement on your experience and your setup. Thatís not reliable data.
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Old 09-23-2020, 11:15 PM   #32
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Absolutely not, a 300fps arrow will not impact the same spot. Iím saying yíall are talking a arrow traveling 20yds!!!! How much of a physical drop in the arrow do you think there is at 20yds if you shot both side by side!? Your talking about less than inch...


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Iím not talking a physical drop in the arrow at all. Iím talking the time it takes for that arrow to impact a deer at said 20 yards while itís ducking at the shot. That extra speed in a kids bow with low poundage could be the difference in a mid/high lung hit or a shot in the void/backstrap. Iím talking about the OPs situation. The extra speed and a decently weighted arrow in my opinion is a better option than heavy and slower. Both should have a razor sharp Cut on Contact head though

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Old 09-23-2020, 11:16 PM   #33
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Depending on DL, and poundage, I could be a lot more than that. Youíre simply basing this statement on your experience and your setup. Thatís not reliable data.

This is simple physics. Over a greater distance, of course you will have more drop off. We are talking about shots at 20yds. I donít care what your bow setup, 40lb or 80lb draw. At the weights we are talking about (100-150gn difference), we are talking about minimal difference. Not to mention everything Iím talking about is in Dr. Ashbyís report. HARD DATA. In plain English.

Look, whether you believe the data or not, I donít care. As a bow hunter, you should really take the time to read it. Itís the longest running piece of active data we have in our sport.


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Old 09-23-2020, 11:28 PM   #34
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Iím not talking a physical drop in the arrow at all. Iím talking the time it takes for that arrow to impact a deer at said 20 yards while itís ducking at the shot. That extra speed in a kids bow with low poundage could be the difference in a mid/high lung hit or a shot in the void/backstrap. Iím talking about the OPs situation. The extra speed and a decently weighted arrow in my opinion is a better option than heavy and slower. Both should have a razor sharp Cut on Contact head though

We all understand that at some point, you can overload an arrow on a kids boys. No reason he should be shooting 800gn arrows. In the OPís case, the ďkidĒ he refers to, is shooting a 26.5Ē draw length at 50# and a 490gn arrow (and thatís the heavy arrow!). The light arrow in this situation is maybe 100-120gn less if you remove the 100gn insert. your explanation holds a lot more weight for an actual kid shooting 40# at 22-24in draw. If this were the case, then how do dudes with a long bow ever manage to hit a deer! By your estimate, that deer would have planted, turned, and ran 3 steps before and arrow out of a long bow even gets to him at 20 yds!


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Old 09-23-2020, 11:42 PM   #35
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We all understand that at some point, you can overload an arrow on a kids boys. No reason he should be shooting 800gn arrows. In the OPís case, the ďkidĒ he refers to, is shooting a 26.5Ē draw length at 50# and a 490gn arrow (and thatís the heavy arrow!). The light arrow in this situation is maybe 100-120gn less if you remove the 100gn insert. your explanation holds a lot more weight for an actual kid shooting 40# at 22-24in draw. If this were the case, then how do dudes with a long bow ever manage to hit a deer! By your estimate, that deer would have planted, turned, and ran 3 steps before and arrow out of a long bow even gets to him at 20 yds!


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Haha Iíve seen deer be long gone by the time a trad arrow gets there. And Iíve seen them stand there and take it without a flinch. But thatís for another time.

The speed he was getting with the heavier arrow is only 30 FPS faster than what people commonly get out of recurves. The heavy arrow is not an advantage if itís only traveling at 217 FPS. Do I think that if a deer stood there and took it that it would do the job, absolutely. But I also think that at 217fps you are losing more advantage than you are gaining by shooting 491gr.

I also agree with you that we are not talking about a little kid shooting low poundage and light draw. But the speeds are reflective of a kids bow thatís over arrowed I think. That bow is capable of better speeds that would lend itself to a more successful outcome I think.
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Old 09-23-2020, 11:48 PM   #36
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Haha Iíve seen deer be long gone by the time a trad arrow gets there. And Iíve seen them stand there and take it without a flinch. But thatís for another time.

The speed he was getting with the heavier arrow is only 30 FPS faster than what people commonly get out of recurves. The heavy arrow is not an advantage if itís only traveling at 217 FPS. Do I think that if a deer stood there and took it that it would do the job, absolutely. But I also think that at 217fps you are losing more advantage than you are gaining by shooting 491gr.

I also agree with you that we are not talking about a little kid shooting low poundage and light draw. But the speeds are reflective of a kids bow thatís over arrowed I think. That bow is capable of better speeds that would lend itself to a more successful outcome I think.

We can absolutely agree that this bow is over arrowed. With a 26.5Ē draw, there no reason to be shooting an arrow thatís 29Ē long. Cut 2.5in off that arrow but leave the weight up front. Youíve dropped 30gn in weight and increased the percentage of FOC.


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Old 09-23-2020, 11:53 PM   #37
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We can absolutely agree that this bow is over arrowed. With a 26.5Ē draw, there no reason to be shooting an arrow thatís 29Ē long. Cut 2.5in off that arrow but leave the weight up front. Youíve dropped 30gn in weight and increased the percentage of FOC.


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Agreed on cutting the arrow

Whats your setup?
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:00 AM   #38
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Agreed on cutting the arrow

Whats your setup?

28Ē Sirius Vulcans
150gn steel insert
125gn Iron Will broadheads
17.7% FOC
Total arrow weight of 596gn

Mathews Reezen
28Ē draw @ 66lb


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Old 09-24-2020, 12:18 AM   #39
Black-N-Red
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I know arrow weight is a touchy subject & I didnít mean to start a debate. Iím on both ends of the heavy arrow high Foc & light arrow debate. Iíve got 5 bows & they range from shooting 505gr @ 293fps with 19.6% foc all the way down to 357gr @ 291fps with 13.6% foc. Iím just want to give my son the absolute best chance at taking his target deer this year. Heís 13 & has been hunting this deer for 3yrs now so Iím trying to get him the best chance. In the past he been shooting 315gr but with each passing year on this deer & i donít want to ruin a chance for him not getting him because I didnít give the best equipment possible.

Iím gonna cut an arrow tomorrow & test it. I feel like cutting 2-3Ē off the arrow might make it to stiff. But weíll see.


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Old 09-24-2020, 12:25 AM   #40
Abu_dude
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I know arrow weight is a touchy subject & I didn’t mean to start a debate. I’m on both ends of the heavy arrow high Foc & light arrow debate. I’ve got 5 bows & they range from shooting 505gr @ 293fps with 19.6% foc all the way down to 357gr @ 291fps with 13.6% foc. I’m just want to give my son the absolute best chance at taking his target deer this year. He’s 13 & has been hunting this deer for 3yrs now so I’m trying to get him the best chance. In the past he been shooting 315gr but with each passing year on this deer & i don’t want to ruin a chance for him not getting him because I didn’t give the best equipment possible.

I’m gonna cut an arrow tomorrow & test it. I feel like cutting 2-3” off the arrow might make it to stiff. But we’ll see.


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Its a debate that will never end. Everyone has their way of thinking and its tough to sway others opinions. Light or Heavy, nothing is gonna beat good shoot placement. However, that little higher FOC will give him better penetration in the event of a not so perfect shot.

Ultimately, the bow needs to be bare shaft turned to figure out what it likes. In a pinch, if the arrows tune good through paper and he's got razor sharp broadheads, let'em fly!
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:32 AM   #41
jaker_cc
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Originally Posted by Black-N-Red View Post
I know arrow weight is a touchy subject & I didnít mean to start a debate. Iím on both ends of the heavy arrow high Foc & light arrow debate. Iíve got 5 bows & they range from shooting 505gr @ 293fps with 19.6% foc all the way down to 357gr @ 291fps with 13.6% foc. Iím just want to give my son the absolute best chance at taking his target deer this year. Heís 13 & has been hunting this deer for 3yrs now so Iím trying to get him the best chance. In the past he been shooting 315gr but with each passing year on this deer & i donít want to ruin a chance for him not getting him because I didnít give the best equipment possible.

Iím gonna cut an arrow tomorrow & test it. I feel like cutting 2-3Ē off the arrow might make it to stiff. But weíll see.


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I like a good debate, thatís why we have this forum. If nothing else hopefully you have more to think about. Maybe a newb will read this and dive down his own rabbit hole haha.
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:35 AM   #42
Abu_dude
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I like a good debate, thatís why we have this forum. If nothing else hopefully you have more to think about. Maybe a newb will read this and dive down his own rabbit hole haha.
Boy ain't that the truth! Its like a rabbit hole out of Alice in
Wonderland!
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:50 AM   #43
TxDispatcher
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I ainít too terribly concerned with what arrow he shoots it with, I just want to get a text saying he finally connected followed by a pic of that grinning joker behind his deer
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:42 AM   #44
muddyfuzzy
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Wow.....this escalated quickly.....


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Old 09-24-2020, 10:19 AM   #45
Briar Friar
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https://www.qdma.com/7-ways-start-yo...hunters-right/

BnR...10.22gpp seems too light. However, I think a shot within 20 yards will be just fine.
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:38 AM   #46
Black-N-Red
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I ainít too terribly concerned with what arrow he shoots it with, I just want to get a text saying he finally connected followed by a pic of that grinning joker behind his deer

Well told him Iím not watching that deer feed in front of me this year like I have the last 3!!!


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Old 09-24-2020, 10:43 AM   #47
TxDispatcher
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Well told him Iím not watching that deer feed in front of me this year like I have the last 3!!!


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haha...Riley has a couple really nice bucks coming in behind their house, and his uncle told him that he needed to let his mother shoot one before he does. I agree to a point, since she's never shot a buck...but I told his uncle "she'd better be in the stand every chance she gets, because its gonna take strong reigns to hold back Riley when he's got the fever"
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