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Old 02-02-2018, 06:06 PM   #101
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The biggest problem is,just using your example as an example. In large expanses of good habitat predators are not as hard on populations. But, predators together with habitat destruction caused by people and it can be Catastrophic.
Habitat destruction? What habitat destruction are you talking about?
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:11 PM   #102
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Habitat destruction? What habitat destruction are you talking about?
agree with you.....I hunt near Yellowstone in the wilderness areas OFTEN.....millions of acres are horseback or foot only....you cannot even cut a tree to make a trail.
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:12 PM   #103
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I find it hard to believe that habitat destruction is affecting the Yellowstone herds because that is a National Park and people canít really do much there right?
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:13 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Etxnoodler View Post
The biggest problem is,just using your example as an example. In large expanses of good habitat predators are not as hard on populations. But, predators together with habitat destruction caused by people and it can be Catastrophic.
Agreed!
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:17 PM   #105
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Declining pregnancy rates and calves dying before their first birthday.



Of those calves, 15% were killed by wolves and 60% were killed by bears. The number killed by bears had more than doubled in twenty years, so why did the bears become so much more reliant on elk in their diet? Because there was a change in the fish populations that bears were previously reliant on. The change? Humans (sport fisherman) illegally releasing fish which wreaked havoc on their populations. The bears were then forced to eat more elk. A much bigger cause of the decline of the Yellowstone herd is due to changing weather patterns that have impacted the grasses of Yellowstone and has depleted the nutritional value of female elk which has resulted in lower pregnancy rates, which is not a problem seen in herds outside of Yellowstone. Again, wolves at the bottom of the list.


So a sports fisherman released illegal fish? Did I get that right? I feel like I am reading a climate change argument.


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Old 02-02-2018, 06:21 PM   #106
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So a sports fisherman released illegal fish? Did I get that right? I feel like I am reading a climate change argument.


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You are. He even mentioned climate change in a couple of post.
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:21 PM   #107
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So a sports fisherman released illegal fish? Did I get that right? I feel like I am reading a climate change argument.


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the argument is bogus anyhow.....fish makes up a VERY small portion of an inland grizzly's diet.....like....a few % maybe??

these arguments are just stupid and are generally published by people with an agenda.
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:27 PM   #108
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So a sports fisherman released illegal fish? Did I get that right? I feel like I am reading a climate change argument.


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it is very common for sport fisherman to haul illegal fish up into the mountains when they fly fish.....makes perfect sense, right?
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:43 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by ThePumaLives View Post
Declining pregnancy rates and calves dying before their first birthday.

Of those calves, 15% were killed by wolves and 60% were killed by bears. The number killed by bears had more than doubled in twenty years, so why did the bears become so much more reliant on elk in their diet? Because there was a change in the fish populations that bears were previously reliant on. The change? Humans (sport fisherman) illegally releasing fish which wreaked havoc on their populations. The bears were then forced to eat more elk. A much bigger cause of the decline of the Yellowstone herd is due to changing weather patterns that have impacted the grasses of Yellowstone and has depleted the nutritional value of female elk which has resulted in lower pregnancy rates, which is not a problem seen in herds outside of Yellowstone. Again, wolves at the bottom of the list.
So you are saying 99% of the Bears in a 2,219,791 acre area relied on the fish in a 500 acre lake....and it tributaries....

Wow.
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:45 PM   #110
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The large Canadian wolves introduced in Yellowstone decimated elk and moose herds. Not even worth arguing about this fact.

Wolf numbers have far exceeded the upper limits of numbers that were agreed upon with the extremist animal rights groups. Even after USFWS acted to de-list the wolves on this basis, the groups have continued to fight de-listing. Now (last August) a federal judge has halted the de-listing in a number of states. The most compelling reason I have seen for the continuing battle to expand wolf numbers and habitat is for the fund-raising aspect for those organizations.

I understand that the wolf has a certain attraction to people -- some of whom adopt dog-wolf crosses as pets. But wild wolves are ruthless in their methods and efficiency of killing; documented sport killing by wolves has occurred -- wiping out herds of wildlife and livestock. Wildlife and livestock in wolf country suffer stresses and lower rate of offspring than prior to the presence of wolves in the neighborhood.

Wolves must, at the very least, be managed.
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:52 PM   #111
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You have desk jockeys and then there are real world applications. The real world is losing this battle
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:19 PM   #112
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I would never hunt a wolf. I have a wolf dog, and weíre way too close for me to ever hunt a full blooded one, call me soft I guess. Anything else is fair game, although I donít have much desire to kill a giraffe or a fox.
I'm hoping this your reason for your statements.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:27 PM   #113
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I'm hoping this your reason for your statements.
the green screen has been hijacked.....that is the reason for the moronic statements.....and no........I am not a conspiracy theorist or anything like that......a sound outdoor minded person would not accept such BS as a fact and spread it around on a forum with people that have spent significant time in the effected areas...pre and post re-introduction.

and for the record.....I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the moderators are not behind this......#278 ;-)

Last edited by Tom; 02-02-2018 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:46 PM   #114
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I'm hoping this your reason for your statements.
Ahhh... now it starts to make a little sense...
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:46 PM   #115
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Wolf problem=helicopter wolf hunts. Put me in coach. I'm ready to play.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:47 PM   #116
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I'm hoping this your reason for your statements.
Nope, I worked for a year on a legislative program in relation to delisting wolves; reviewed the testimonies of thousands of individuals on all sides of the fence, personally interviewed about a hundred more, went over God knows how many studies done by all sides, and finally came to the conclusion that the extermination of wolves was not the best course of action. A regulated harvest of approximately 25% of the wolf population annually is the recommendation that I seconded.

As for Sasha the Wolf, I would never allow her to influence a recommendation that I make to an elected representative of the citizenry. Trust me, it shocked the hell out of a lot of the people I met (great folks on all sides of the argument) that I came down on the pro-hunting side. Yes, I would allow her to influence my opinion of me personally hunting one. Hereís another off the wall opinion of mine, I donít believe that the breeding of wolf crosses should be legal. Anyways, this discussion is getting way off the original topic and no one is going to change the other personís mind.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:52 PM   #117
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Nope, I worked for a year on a legislative program in relation to delisting wolves; reviewed the testimonies of thousands of individuals on all sides of the fence, personally interviewed about a hundred more, went over God knows how many studies done by all sides, and finally came to the conclusion that the extermination of wolves was not the best course of action. A regulated harvest of approximately 25% of the wolf population annually is the recommendation that I seconded.

As for Sasha the Wolf, I would never allow her to influence a recommendation that I make to an elected representative of the citizenry. Trust me, it shocked the hell out of a lot of the people I met (great folks on all sides of the argument) that I came down on the pro-hunting side. Yes, I would allow her to influence my opinion of me personally hunting one. Here’s another off the wall opinion of mine, I don’t believe that the breeding of wolf crosses should be legal. Anyways, this discussion is getting way off the original topic and no one is going to change the other person’s mind.
I take your word for what you say....you are an elected representative of the citizenry.....can you share your name so that we can support you??
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:56 PM   #118
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I have a question....I am not trying to be a pain.

have you ever been out West and in the mountains, wilderness areas, etc? I ask this because the areas where the elk are declining there is no or very little impact of humans.....the "impact" that is there has changed very little since the introduction of the wolves and the Elk & Moose declined big time. It still gets cold in winter and hot in summer.....
Yes. Wilderness areas are (usually) the more rugged areas. Used by most species during spring, summer, and fall. They are mostly untouched by people. But thatís not where ďmostĒ species winter, when they are most vurnerable to predation. They move to the lower areas. That are more inhabited by people. A lot of hay fields and other agriculture. Forced to congregate on the good habitat left or in some cases places where the western states feed them to keep them off of the ag areas. Easy targets. And die off from lack of proper wintering areas. Also humans put out the fires needed to set back vegitation.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:57 PM   #119
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You read that wrong or I worded it incorrectly; I advise and consult elected representatives, I have no desire at this time to run for public office.
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:02 PM   #120
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You read that wrong or I worded it incorrectly; I advise and consult elected representatives, I have no desire at this time to run for public office.
I did misread what you wrote....but you can share some details of yourself anyway as this is more or less a tight knit collection of Texas Bow hunters.....most with little experience in the re-introduction of wolves.....certainly very few experts who would be asked to advise elected officials on the subject
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:16 PM   #121
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I did misread what you wrote....but you can share some details of yourself anyway as this is more or less a tight knit collection of Texas Bow hunters.....most with little experience in the re-introduction of wolves.....certainly very few experts who would be asked to advise elected officials on the subject
I misread pumalives, I thought it was petalives---
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:23 PM   #122
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I did misread what you wrote....but you can share some details of yourself anyway as this is more or less a tight knit collection of Texas Bow hunters.....most with little experience in the re-introduction of wolves.....certainly very few experts who would be asked to advise elected officials on the subject
I wasnít asked, I was voluntold. If youíre ever in Austin let me know, Iíll buy you a beer and break your heart about some of the people Iíve done work for.
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:30 PM   #123
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I wasnít asked, I was voluntold. If youíre ever in Austin let me know, Iíll buy you a beer and break your heart about some of the people Iíve done work for.
I will do that....I get that way now and again...and I am interested to hear from all the wolf experts....certainly the ones from Central Texas.

please don't get me wrong....I do not mean to come over as insensitive or untrusting in any way......I love nothing more than all wildlife and the preservation of them all equally......I can be wrong at times (God may know...wife knows for sure) so I am open to hearing all opinions and accepting all facts.

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Old 02-02-2018, 08:36 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Etxnoodler View Post
Yes. Wilderness areas are (usually) the more rugged areas. Used by most species during spring, summer, and fall. They are mostly untouched by people. But thatís not where ďmostĒ species winter, when they are most vurnerable to predation. They move to the lower areas. That are more inhabited by people. A lot of hay fields and other agriculture. Forced to congregate on the good habitat left or in some cases places where the western states feed them to keep them off of the ag areas. Easy targets. And die off from lack of proper wintering areas. Also humans put out the fires needed to set back vegitation.
you are correct....it is always the low lying areas where the Elk will winter...can you name me one major area that is not protected or that has changed at all in the last 20 years? just one.
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:49 PM   #125
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Am not buying...
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:14 PM   #126
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you are correct....it is always the low lying areas where the Elk will winter...can you name me one major area that is not protected or that has changed at all in the last 20 years? just one.
Not all elk winter in the massive herds. I’m sure you know this. Thousands of “small” low valleys are now ag or even worse movie stars and Rich people buy them just to have a place in the mountains. For the record I have no issue with hunting wolves. I hope to kill one one day. But just the fact that some states have massive feeding programs should tell you that wintering areas are lacking. You can also read things like Colorado’s hunt planner that say this and say that is the reason for reducing herd size in some areas. High wolf populations plus not a lot of prime habitat in some areas equal massive kills. Tons have been developed even more in the last 20 years and for a hundred years before that. And I don’t agree with the fish theory posted just for the record.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:16 PM   #127
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Am not buying...
I just wish they would stop selling. The species isnít native. Iím ok with people shooting them at will just as they do with other exotics. Iím going to assume that this ďillegal fishĒ that was released was also non native. If you can argue that the release of the fish caused a big problem with the ecosystem and then turn around and say nothing is wrong with introducing a non native predator into an ecosystem because it will no negative effects then you are seriously touched in the head.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:18 PM   #128
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I just wish they would stop selling. The species isnít native. Iím ok with people shooting them at will just as they do with other exotics. Iím going to assume that this ďillegal fishĒ that was released was also non native. If you can argue that the release of the fish caused a big problem with the ecosystem and then turn around and say nothing is wrong with introducing a non native predator into an ecosystem because it will no negative effects then you are seriously touched in the head.
Good point.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:20 PM   #129
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I just wish they would stop selling. The species isnít native. Iím ok with people shooting them at will just as they do with other exotics. Iím going to assume that this ďillegal fishĒ that was released was also non native. If you can argue that the release of the fish caused a big problem with the ecosystem and then turn around and say nothing is wrong with introducing a non native predator into an ecosystem because it will no negative effects then you are seriously touched in the head.
Thank you.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:24 PM   #130
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I'm fortunate not to live in those areas. I'd shoot everyone I saw just like I do coyotes here. They are a competing predator and I don't need them in my ecosystem.

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Old 02-02-2018, 09:32 PM   #131
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Not all elk winter in the massive herds. I’m sure you know this. Thousands of “small” low valleys are now ag or even worse movie stars and Rich people buy them just to have a place in the mountains. For the record I have no issue with hunting wolves. I hope to kill one one day. But just the fact that some states have massive feeding programs should tell you that wintering areas are lacking. You can also read things like Colorado’s hunt planner that say this and say that is the reason for reducing herd size in some areas. High wolf populations plus not a lot of prime habitat in some areas equal massive kills. Tons have been developed even more in the last 20 years and for a hundred years before that. And I don’t agree with the fish theory posted just for the record.
fair points....but if the wolf was not running amuck out West there would be no Elk or Moose population concern to talk about....Elk and Moose are doing just fine where there are no wolf...Utah, Colorado....etc. so the talk of loss of habitat is just not valid.

I have killed my wolf with a bow....really don't care to see another one while hunting....there are no shortage of wolf in North America. I shot my wolf in Alberta at a time when you would go to federal prison in Montana for shooting one....literally across a barbed wire fence.....In Alberta I was given a wolf tag when I purchased my moose tag and was told that if I shoot one they would give me another tag....in fact....even during archery only season they would loan me a .243.......so....no shortage of wolf....then or now

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Old 02-02-2018, 09:52 PM   #132
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I'm fortunate not to live in those areas. I'd shoot everyone I saw just like I do coyotes here. They are a competing predator and I don't need them in my ecosystem.

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Thank you! Everybody that wants to kill all wolves should just admit this is the reason.

And the populations would have always been fine if we hadnít nearly wiped them out to begin with through over hunting,disease, ignorance and habitat loss. Prime example of habitat loss is buffalo. We will never see massive herds of them again. Why? Hunting(slaughtering) to begin with. Now Nowhere to go. Iím just saying itís not just the wolfís fault. They need to be cut back to the agreed upon numbers.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:59 PM   #133
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Don't want the buffalo back in their historic numbers either. Rather have beef grazing than buffalo.

Fact is it took nearly a century to rebuild the populations of game animals. This was done off the backs and wallets of hunters. You environmental extremists thinking it's good to have wolves may be well intentioned but you're wrong from my point of view. At least morning the numbers they have swelled to.

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Old 02-02-2018, 10:02 PM   #134
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Thank you! Everybody that wants to kill all wolves should just admit this is the reason.

And the populations would have always been fine if we hadnít nearly wiped them out to begin with through over hunting,disease, ignorance and habitat loss. Prime example of habitat loss is buffalo. We will never see massive herds of them again. Why? Hunting(slaughtering) to begin with. Now Nowhere to go. Iím just saying itís not just the wolfís fault. They need to be cut back to the agreed upon numbers.
congratulations...you have trolled out what you were looking for......and to school your DA up....wolves were exterminated because ranchers could not keep livestock from being killed....plain and simple. We are animals on this planet as well....when we expand we will have an impact.....convert to a canine and run off in the woods and hope for the best.
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Old 02-02-2018, 10:07 PM   #135
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congratulations...you have trolled out what you were looking for......and to school your DA up....wolves were exterminated because ranchers could not keep livestock from being killed....plain and simple. We are animals on this planet as well....when we expand we will have an impact.....convert to a canine and run off in the woods and hope for the best.
Wasnít just talking about wolves being exterminated. Not trolling anything, just trying to educate. And Iím out before any more insults start flying. Should have never gotten involved, canít educate those that donít want to be.
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Old 02-02-2018, 10:12 PM   #136
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Wasn’t just talking about wolves being exterminated. Not trolling anything, just trying to educate. And I’m out before any more insults start flying. Should have never gotten involved, can’t educate those that don’t want to be.
I am sure you were not just talking about wolves....Nutria and fire ants lives matter as well.

I apologize for telling you to turn into a canine and run off in the woods....that was not right.

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Old 02-03-2018, 12:11 AM   #137
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That’s a big dog!
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:56 AM   #138
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Someone will be along shortly to say they saw one just like that in East Texas.
Those boys in East Tx need to stop drinking so much.
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Old 02-03-2018, 02:11 AM   #139
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Good lord a bunch of Texas guys, who have never been around wolves, arguing about the effects of wolves.. And we wonder why the B.C. bear hunt got banned so easily. A bunch of hunters cant even agree on shooting a Predator.. SMH
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Old 02-03-2018, 06:47 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Etxnoodler View Post
Thank you! Everybody that wants to kill all wolves should just admit this is the reason.

And the populations would have always been fine if we hadnít nearly wiped them out to begin with through over hunting,disease, ignorance and habitat loss. Prime example of habitat loss is buffalo. We will never see massive herds of them again. Why? Hunting(slaughtering) to begin with. Now Nowhere to go. Iím just saying itís not just the wolfís fault. They need to be cut back to the agreed upon numbers.
We will never see massive buffalo herds again because of fences and buffalo to cattle and cattle to buffalo diseases, not hunting.

The habitat is still there tolerance is not.
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Old 02-03-2018, 07:00 AM   #141
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Aside from all the butt hurt in this thread...it's a very cool picture! I didn't realize how big those wolves really were.
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Old 02-03-2018, 07:34 AM   #142
Caddo Creek
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Not trying to get into this debate but wanted to share some info.

Iíve hunted the Yellowstone area for Elk twice. Iíve read about the decline of the herd and in 2015 we saw very few Elk.

The ones we saw were those heading over the Mountain when we tried calling and yes we did have Wolf Packs in two(2) different valleys we were hunting.

I believe that the wolves which were introduced were not what was native and they have an impact even if not the largest impact.

I first heard about the trout theory and shift in the bears diet from the native trout to more Elk from a friend in Colorado and my reaction was same as most....riiiigghhttt!!

Then I saw a documentary on TV about how Lake Trout introduction to the Lake or Lakes. The Wildlife people are trying to eradicate them because they have decimated the native trout populations...cutthroat I believe. I believe the cutthroat use the Lakes at certain times of the year or fry and have been fed on by the voracious Lake Trout. Sounds like they are making headway by targeting their spawning areas which took a while for them to figure out.

Also while I was hunting...the amount of beetle kill of the Forrest was incredible....looked like forrest fire but was beetle kill which also affected the pine nuts that bears use for food.

Do I think wolves have had an big effect.....yes!! But I no longer dismiss these other issues as factors as well.

Trout donít stay in just one lake but at times they may congregate in small areas like a lake....donít believe me....look at how native tribes netted out a half million acre lake of all walleyes....they netted their spawning areas which are very limited to a few tributaries during their spring spawn.

Those cutthroat may occupy millions of acres in the tributaries during a portion of the year but congregate in lakes etc. during others. Been a while since I watched the documentary on TV so maybe someone else can fill in those facts.

By the way....most of the outfitters believe the Bears are over-populated and need to be managed as well.

The grizzlies up there are plentiful and call it crazy but the guides contend they literally shadow the hunters waiting for an easy meal.

They also told me they rarely see a Moose which was a common occurrence before the reintroduction of the wolves.

I think there are many truths related to this issue and it may a combination of things contributing to the Elk decline in the Yellowstone system.

Hopefully I wonít get pounded as I rarely post....Iím sensitive to getting hammered.
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Old 02-03-2018, 07:44 AM   #143
Mexico
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Sucker is huge!

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Old 02-03-2018, 07:55 AM   #144
Pernell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePumaLives View Post
Read that thread, animals are animals doing their animal things. And again, wolves have not wreaked havoc on the elk population. I suggest everyone do some actual research; because if weíre intending to save the elk then there are a few other things that need to be addressed before wolves. Wolves also arenít wreaking havoc on livestock or humans.
I guess it is just a coincidence that all the elk started dying after the wolf population exploded. For you to sit there and say that they dont kill a lot of livestock you are really naive. How many head of cattle do you own in Montana? The reports that you read about wolves are written by the people that reintroduced them to the area. If you want the real story talk to the ranchers.
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:05 AM   #145
Pernell
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Originally Posted by ThePumaLives View Post
Nope, I worked for a year on a legislative program in relation to delisting wolves; reviewed the testimonies of thousands of individuals on all sides of the fence, personally interviewed about a hundred more, went over God knows how many studies done by all sides, and finally came to the conclusion that the extermination of wolves was not the best course of action. A regulated harvest of approximately 25% of the wolf population annually is the recommendation that I seconded.

As for Sasha the Wolf, I would never allow her to influence a recommendation that I make to an elected representative of the citizenry. Trust me, it shocked the hell out of a lot of the people I met (great folks on all sides of the argument) that I came down on the pro-hunting side. Yes, I would allow her to influence my opinion of me personally hunting one. Hereís another off the wall opinion of mine, I donít believe that the breeding of wolf crosses should be legal. Anyways, this discussion is getting way off the original topic and no one is going to change the other personís mind.
"Sasha the Wolf" and you dont have an agenda? I agree the Green screen has been hijacked!
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:50 AM   #146
breadman
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hummmm , I`m still gonna shot one when and if I ever see one !!!!
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:09 AM   #147
switchbackxt
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Originally Posted by Texans42 View Post
So you are saying 99% of the Bears in a 2,219,791 acre area relied on the fish in a 500 acre lake....and it tributaries....

Wow.
What you fail to realize is that Pumalives doesn't have a bear in this race. Only a wolf.
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:11 AM   #148
Justinfitz1
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Awesome pic!
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:25 AM   #149
simek
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I want to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread. It demonstrates just how controversial the wolf issue is, even to folks that, for the most part, spend a very small amount of time in states that actually have wolves.

By reviewing this thread, itís pretty apparent that the position most folks take on this thread are either dominated by personal interests (I hunt elk, wolves eat elk, wolves are badÖ.I raise cattle, wolves eat cattle, wolves are bad) or political position (I am conservative, erego the friend of my enemy is my enemy).

One of the most difficult things for people to do (including myself) is to put truly consider the other persons POV. I have hunted out west on numerous occasions, chasing elk. Just because of that, it does not mean that I donít realize the value wolves bring (aesthetically and economically) to a place like Yellowstone, where people from around the world come to see large predators, like wolves and grizzly bears.

The same Federal government that was largely responsible for sponsoring the large scale removal of wolves from the lower 48 is the same Federal government that is responsible for putting wolves back on the landscape. I have to imagine, at one point, there were probably some discussions that went something likeÖ. ďWe really fíd up, we need to address this. How do we go about this?Ē

The reintroduction of a different species of wolf into the lower 48 was probably a no brainer at the time. You canít bring back a species that is gone (or at least gone past the point of being able to find it using a reasonable amount of resources). With Canadian wolves being so easily accessible, it was probably the path of least resistance. Were there unanticipated negative results or did someone underestimate predation on elk and mule deerÖ.maybe so.

Now, while I donít personally agree with a good bit of what has been stated on this thread, I will agree that one of the best ways to keep personal opinion out of a situation like this is to base management on good science. If good science drives policy suggests that a population is recovered after meeting a specific number, then that number should be respected. After the number has been met, management goes back to the states and, if deemed legal, hunting season should be established, with $ generated from license sales going back to the states for conservation. One of the reasons the ESA has been hammered is the lack of ďsticking to the planĒ, which, in fact, is really not an issue with the ESA, itís an issue with enforcement.

In the end, I personally feel that wolves deserve a spot on the landscape, but need to be managed, and that management should be based on sound, unbiased science, not personal interest or political leaning. Doing that, while easier said than done, can only be successful once people better understand whatís driving the position of those opposing them.

Thanks again for all the good discussion.
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Old 02-03-2018, 09:26 AM   #150
CEO
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I remember hearing Rinella pass along an anecdote about wolf reintroduction on his podcast. I don't remember it exactly but it was along the lines of; the man they got the wolves from to start the reintroduction picked out the meanest, most aggressive wolves he had. Said if we were dumb enough to purposely bring back wolves he would give us the best ones. Not sure on the validity of that but it is interesting.
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