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Short Vs. Long Axle to Axle; Myth, Fact and Opinion...

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    Short Vs. Long Axle to Axle; Myth, Fact and Opinion...

    I hear it all the time, I see it all the time and, as a coach, I am constantly trying to tech someone a less effective way to shoot due to it; It is a short axle to axle bow.

    Myth, marketing and hype: A bow can't be a "hunting" bow unless it is short axle to axle. Do not be deceived friends, this is almost always a marketing ploy. For years we had nothing but long axle to axle bows and we hunted with them just fine. In fact, trad shooters of today still use bows in excess of 60 inches to hunt with; so what's the deal? Is a short bow a benefit in a blind, on a stand or when spot and stalking thick brush? Maybe, but does that benefit out weight the costs? Maybe not.

    Why you should consider a long(er) axle to axle bow: Accuracy and repeatability.

    This weekend my son bought his first bow (with his own money); he shot every bow in the bow shop and ultimately decided on the Centergy Hybrid. Gage is 6 feet tall and a DL of about 28.75 inches. But what I was able to see was, in shooting the shorter bows, how the string angle effected his posture while at full draw very clearly.

    With the short bows his head was tilted way down to get his nose on the string, which is how he wants to shoot. It wasn't until he drew the Hybrid, at 35.25" A2A, that he was really comfortable. He picked the bow, and he picked one that fit him well and, I am sure, that he will be able to shoot very accurately because it fits him.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a long axle to axle advocate; I'm a right fit advocate. However, I see so many shooters (hunters) with a 28-30 inch bow that just doesn't fit them. Why? I can only guess, but it probably has something to do with that afore mentioned marketing and what is available and "hot" at the time.

    Many people have been taught how to shoot by placing their nose on the string, and this is a good way to do it; unless you ruin your posture in the process. By needing to tilt the head down you build a certain amount of inaccuracy into the system; anchor points aren't the same if there is a lot of movement involved. It's just the nature of the beast. The only real cure for this is shooting many arrows, in the neighborhood of 15-20,000 per year, which is something most hunters aren't going to do. You can get away with a form flaw if you practice it enough, but most of us don't practice enough. This makes it paramount to get our form right and the accuracy (and repeatability) will follow.

    I used to shoot a short bow, but I was okay with my nose not touching the string. This kept my head in an upright position but meant that I had to have an alternative anchor point; I used a kisser button. This is the best fix in this scenario, otherwise we are either shooting too long of a draw length or tilting our head (to get our nose to the string); both of which are detrimental to accuracy and repeatability.

    Outside of the "form" category, it is universally recognized that a longer bow is more stable, which is why target archers shoot really long bows. They are usually slightly heavier, although this is getting to be less and less; and mass means a more stable bow and, generally, less hand shock.

    So, the next time you go bow shopping pay attention to our posture when shooting that new "flavor of the day" bow. Try a longer bow, see if it feels better (it probably will). And remember, long bows kill animals just as dead.

    But, if you just have to have that shorter bow, learn to shoot using an alternative anchor, like a kisser button, or a retina lock device. This way you can reap the benefits of both a short bow and good shooting form.

    #2
    I bought the Hoyt we have been discussing just for this reason. My current ride is a Z7 Extreme which as you know is about as short as they come. With all that being said I am still more comfortable with the Extreme. And again, as we have discussed, there is probably some set up and tuning issues to work out with the Hoyt. I am comfortable shooting foam out 90-100 yds with the extreme with about an 8 inch landing pattern.
    I guess what I am getting at is that I am not quite sold on the longer ATA quite yet, but I am not done trying.

    Comment


      #3
      Great information as usual Rat. I'm so glad I saw the error in my ways and switched to longer Axle to Axle bows. It makes me cringe when I see some of the short little bows that came out this year. I hope the bow manufactures will try to keep the hunting bows in that 32-35 inch range in the future.

      Comment


        #4
        Another good information thread. May I add something?

        So, the next time you go bow shopping pay attention to our posture (have someone else pay attention) when shooting that new "flavor of the day" bow. Try a longer bow, see if it feels better (it probably will). And remember, long bows kill animals just as dead.

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          #5
          I believe with the more parallel limbs these days the risers are longer therefore giving you the stability almost like a longer axel to axel bow without parallel limbs.

          Comment


            #6
            Short Vs. Long Axle to Axle; Myth, Fact and Opinion...

            I shoot a ZXT, basically same bow as the Z7 extreme, 28 1/2in ATA, but I don’t have an issue cause I don’t use a kisser button and have never touched my nose to the string. An archery coach that taught my wife once watched me shoot, and said he didn’t know how I was accurate, but not to change anything cause it obviously works for me! I just have the same anchor point I learned to use 20 years ago. just saying cause ya don’t necessarily have to use a device or touch nose to be an accurate shooter.



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              #7
              Originally posted by clffrdfdge View Post
              I believe with the more parallel limbs these days the risers are longer therefore giving you the stability almost like a longer axel to axel bow without parallel limbs.
              Good observation. Modern bows with long, stiff risers, parallel or beyond parallel limbs and big cam systems do have much better string angles than bows of the same A2A length of just a few years ago.

              Ultimately, string angle is what we are looking for when we talk about how the string contacts our face in order to keep our posture correct.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Jeremy7306 View Post
                I shoot a ZXT, basically same bow as the Z7 extreme, 28 1/2in ATA, but I don’t have an issue cause I don’t use a kisser button and have never touched my nose to the string. An archery coach that taught my wife once watched me shoot, and said he didn’t know how I was accurate, but not to change anything cause it obviously works for me! I just have the same anchor point I learned to use 20 years ago. just saying cause ya don’t necessarily have to use a device or touch nose to be an accurate shooter.
                As a part time coach I tech this exact same thing. There is no perfect form, only perfect form for an individual. Sounds like you have it dialed in and you are right, with a proper and repeatable form you may not need an additional aide.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Totally agree, Rat! I really like my 32” ATA bow and may buy a longer ata bow in the future.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Very informative thread. Thanks!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I wish someone with a draw board would get some of the bow models and see what their axle to axle is when at full draw. I've always wanted to see if there is a big difference between the different kind of bows.

                      For example is what is the axle to axle length of a Halon 32 vs a Prime Centergy at full draw? is there more a less flex in the split limbs vs solid limbs at full draw, etc.?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Miller View Post
                        I wish someone with a draw board would get some of the bow models and see what their axle to axle is when at full draw. I've always wanted to see if there is a big difference between the different kind of bows.

                        For example is what is the axle to axle length of a Halon 32 vs a Prime Centergy at full draw? is there more a less flex in the split limbs vs solid limbs at full draw, etc.?


                        I have a draw board but have never taken any measurements of ata while at full draw. Generally speaking I think more deflection occurs with solid limb bows at full draw, at least what I’ve noticed on mine. One of the advantages of split limbs is the fact they cam be preloaded more at brace than their solid limb counterparts, we’ve clearly seen evidence of this with the “beyond parallel” trend that has become very popular the last couple of years. So while you pose an interesting question it’s not all things being equal as the design and geometry of the system will ultimately dictate the amount of deflection through the draw cycle continuing to full draw.


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                          #13
                          I’ve always wondered about this short vs long ata. This week I’ve been shooting a little & came to realize that I shoot a short bow a lot better than a long bow. Example: my Spyder 34 vs Creed XS. At 40yrds I couldn’t get better than a 3” group with my Spyder 34 but get my Creed XS & was stacking them in a 1.5-2” group. It may have something to do with what I started shooting. My very first bow was a Switchback XT. Mate with more practice with the longer bow I maybe able to shoot it better. But I also feel more comfortable with my shorter bows.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Like a shorter bow. I have a Carbon Spyder 30. I can drive tacks with it. Then again my Mathews LX was much the same. Just heavier, slower and harder to shoot in an older pop up.

                            Sent from my SM-J710MN using Tapatalk

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Miller View Post
                              I wish someone with a draw board would get some of the bow models and see what their axle to axle is when at full draw. I've always wanted to see if there is a big difference between the different kind of bows.

                              For example is what is the axle to axle length of a Halon 32 vs a Prime Centergy at full draw? is there more a less flex in the split limbs vs solid limbs at full draw, etc.?
                              String angle is what we should be measuring, at full draw. A couple of years ago Hoyt came out with a marketing ploy that stated their "new" cam system felt like a longer A2A bow. Subsequent measurements at full draw showed this to be what it was, a marketing ploy. 1Nestly did some comparisons on his youtube channel. Exactly what you are asking about.
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0UEKp8_Eu0&t=2s
                              IOW, it felt like a 1 inch longer A2A bow; not exactly the mind blowing experience the hype suggested.

                              I agree, that limb deflection plays a part in that, but what we are really looking at when we talk about the string's interaction with the face, and how it all fits together, is the string angle at full draw.

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