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Old 10-11-2017, 08:50 PM   #1
Sika
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Default Broadhead tuning - at my wit's end!

This one has me and my pro shop stumped.

Set up is Hoyt Defiant - 26.5" draw @ 46 lbs.
Arrows are Gold Tip XT Hunter 400 spine (I've tried 500 also) cut to 26.5"
100 grain field point with 50 grain weighted insert. Total arrow weight is 375 grains. Rest is QAD drop a way.
Broadheads are 100 grain slick tricks.

At 30 yards, my broadheads are consistently impacting 6" low relative to field points. At 20 yards, still low but only by a couple inches.
I have tried moving the rest up. No change. I have gone from 500 to 400 spine arrows...no change. I have tried different broadheads..even worse.

Now I'm seeing what appears to be color transfer from my vanes in the "U" of the rest.

I'm at the point of wanting to start completely over with a different arrow rest. I've had QADs before on other bows and have never had this problem. The pro shop recently checked cam timing. Arrows made good tears through paper. I haven't re-checked paper tuning since I messed with the rest.

Outta ideas...what say you green screen?
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Old 10-11-2017, 08:56 PM   #2
jake-1024
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Sounds like the rest isn’t dropping fast enough if your vanes are hitting it. What vanes are you using?
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Old 10-11-2017, 08:59 PM   #3
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Have you changed the nock height?
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Old 10-11-2017, 08:59 PM   #4
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Have you tried indexing broadheads to your vanes? After perfect paper tuning my bow still wouldn't shoot viper tricks with field points, once I indexed them with the rubber o ring they had perfect flight. My pro shop told me to index them vertically however they still wouldn't fly properly I had to rotate them on a horizontal plane for proper flight. Now once I find the proper index on my BHs I can get viper tricks,Magnus 2 and 4 blade, Magnus black hornet, and a few others to fly perfectly with field points. It's worth a shot.
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Old 10-11-2017, 08:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jake-1024 View Post
Sounds like the rest isn’t dropping fast enough if your vanes are hitting it. What vanes are you using?
The little raptor vanes that come on the GT's.

I agree, that could be a problem...but why would it affect broadhead flight? Unless the broadhead just amplifies an existing problem??
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:02 PM   #6
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Both arrows are the same length ? Have you tried shooting bare shafts ? This will rule out fletching contact .

Last edited by Hydestik; 10-11-2017 at 09:04 PM..
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
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Both arrows are the same length ?
Yes
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:04 PM   #8
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I'd try a twist on each side of the yoke or a twist in or out of bottom of control
Cable
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:05 PM   #9
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Been along time since I've tuned a Hoyt. Enewman could verify or correct what was stated by myself
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:06 PM   #10
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A broad head will definitely amplify a problem as you are adding another steering wheel.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sika View Post
The little raptor vanes that come on the GT's.

I agree, that could be a problem...but why would it affect broadhead flight? Unless the broadhead just amplifies an existing problem??
This. Broadhead amplifies the clearance issue. Move the “football” down a little in the cable. You can actually film it with the slow motion feature on an I phone and see if it is dropping fast enough. Some drop aways will “bounce” too and catch a vane after it has dropped.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sika View Post
The little raptor vanes that come on the GT's.

I agree, that could be a problem...but why would it affect broadhead flight? Unless the broadhead just amplifies an existing problem??
I’m definitely no expert, but it seems like that’s pretty much the rule of thumb. The broadheads steer the arrow more than a field tip does. And it makes sense that if the vanes are contacting the rest it would throw the front end of the arrow down making the arrows shoot low. I’ve never done it myself, but have heard you can spray the back end of the arrow with foot powder spray and that will tell you if there is contact.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:10 PM   #13
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Broadheads amplify everything! It does sound like rest timing might be worth examining. You want the timing marks to align on the rest during the last inch of your draw cycle, sometime following the factory instructions the rest is locked up too early which causes clearance issues (stays up too long). I usually tie my cord in and leave extra on the rest side of the cord for fine tuning, but if they used the "football" clamp you might have some room to adjust the timing of the rest as described above without having to take it back to the shop.

Saw the suggestion for foot powder for checking contact issues, I've had good results with lipstick on the leading edge of the vanes in the past as well.

Last edited by agtex42; 10-11-2017 at 09:14 PM..
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:12 PM   #14
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My advice would be to strip fetching off of one arrow and shoot with field point (definitely don't try with broad head). Try to tune your rest to this eliminating possibility of fletching contacting rest since it's a bare shaft. Once you move rest to get a bullet hole without fletching, shoot your normal arrow with field point, then broad head. A fletching clearance issue will stick out like a sore thumb.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:14 PM   #15
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Sika I can help. But last time I tried you basically told me to get lost. So I don't mind helping. But pm me if you do
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:14 PM   #16
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You are getting contact somewhere. Nothing is going to work as far as tuning until you eliminate the contact. It sounds like the contact is between the U of the rest and the vanes. First thing I would do is adjust the rest drop timing to eliminate the vane contact with the rest.

Once you've gotten rid of contact issues, you can tune. You won't be able to tune the bow for anything though as long as you've got contact especially when you put a broadhead on. Given that you've moved some stuff, you're going to need to start over on tuning once you eliminate contact issues. The tune you had before probably wasn't good anyway if you had contact, so just start fresh.

What's happening is that the contact with the rest is sending the arrow flight off course as it tries to leave the bow, and then the broadhead is taking it further down that course. It's magnifying the error from what your field point will show you.

D
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:15 PM   #17
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You stated in the opening of the thread that you hadn't paper tuned the bow since changing the rest.

If any change is made to the rest or the knocking point it's a good idea to shoot some paper.

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Old 10-11-2017, 09:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Sika I can help. But last time I tried you basically told me to get lost. So I don't mind helping. But pm me if you do
Oops.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:34 PM   #19
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Not rare outta that bow.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dk_ace View Post
You are getting contact somewhere. Nothing is going to work as far as tuning until you eliminate the contact. It sounds like the contact is between the U of the rest and the vanes. First thing I would do is adjust the rest drop timing to eliminate the vane contact with the rest.

Once you've gotten rid of contact issues, you can tune. You won't be able to tune the bow for anything though as long as you've got contact especially when you put a broadhead on. Given that you've moved some stuff, you're going to need to start over on tuning once you eliminate contact issues. The tune you had before probably wasn't good anyway if you had contact, so just start fresh.

What's happening is that the contact with the rest is sending the arrow flight off course as it tries to leave the bow, and then the broadhead is taking it further down that course. It's magnifying the error from what your field point will show you.

D



You saved me a heck of a lot of typing. Well said.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:35 PM   #21
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Thanks guys. I'll work on the fletching contact problem. I hadn't noticed it until today.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:38 PM   #22
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Courtney, if your getting vane contact, you have a rest timing issue. As stated, it needs to be at the loading point during the last inch of full draw. How ever, I have heard of some super speed bows having the same problem with this type of rest (350+ IBO). But don't think at your lbs, and arrow weight, it would be a cause of fletch/launch contact. I shoot about the same arrow weight, length, and spine. But at a higher draw weight(58-63lbs) and draw length (28"). I've owned numerous QADs on different bows also. And had to replace a few due to "inexperienced handlers" trying to force the rest down because they did not know how it works. That bent the rest shaft and altered the spring.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:59 PM   #23
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Got away from QAD a while back but also switched to VaneTec (they are one of the most consistent weight vane to vane) vanes that are lower profile, but longer (3.25 I think). I also use glue mine with a decent helical.

IMO, switch to a hamskea hybrid rest, swap your vanes to a lower profile/longer vane, and add a slight helical (at your poundage I wouldn't add too much).

I bet you a started lacy pup that you will shoot darts after that.

Some rests will "bounce" up a tad after contacting the shelf. This may be where your contact is. The Hamskea will not if set tight enough.

Also, even with low pro vanes, I still shoot cock out instead of down. With arrow flex during the shot, I don't like even risking vane contact with shooting cock vane down.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:23 PM   #24
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Oops.
I'm sure she will be just fine without his help.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:42 PM   #25
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On my hoyts I had to get away from QAD’s. Had several I couldn’t hid rid of fletching contact till I went to a limb driven rest.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:53 PM   #26
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On the QAD..loosen the draw string on the bow string so it has enough tension to raise the rest on your draw. Meaning don't cock the rest. Let the draw cycle of the bow raise the rest.
Shoot the bow. If you still have vane contact shorten the draw string for the rest in 1/4" increment till vane contact is gone.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:10 AM   #27
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Just to be sure...what am I looking at here...this *is* vane contact, right?


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Old 10-12-2017, 07:14 AM   #28
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Looks like to me.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:19 AM   #29
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Have you tried turning the co ck vane up? That's how I shoot mine.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerald G View Post
Have you tried turning the co ck vane up? That's how I shoot mine.


That's normally how I shoot it.


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Old 10-12-2017, 07:23 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sika View Post


Just to be sure...what am I looking at here...this *is* vane contact, right?


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Yes! Is that an HDX or a Hunter? Cock vane up??

Edit: Just saw it's up but that contact looks like it would have had to have been cock vane down at some point?

Last edited by Fishndude; 10-12-2017 at 07:26 AM..
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:37 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishndude View Post

Edit: Just saw it's up but that contact looks like it would have had to have been cock vane down at some point?
That what I was thinking from looking at the marks on the rest. Mine hits if I turn the cock vane down.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:37 AM   #33
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Just send Rod to get you a new, fully rigged bow, new release, new arrows and new broadheads.

This one is obviously worn out!
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:37 AM   #34
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Get a Vapor Trail Limb Driver rest and problem solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:48 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
Sika I can help. But last time I tried you basically told me to get lost. So I don't mind helping. But pm me if you do
Maybe I read that wrong,but it kind of reminds me of a creepy facebook comment!lol

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Old 10-12-2017, 09:29 AM   #36
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From looking at the pics of her rest, it is obvious that her vanes are hitting the rest before it drops. However, they will be hitting the rest whether she is shooting broadheads or fieldpoints, so wouldnt the effect be the same and if the bow is tuned right, shouldnt they still impact at the same point (although it is the wrong point). Why would the broadhead hit so much lower? Just trying to understand that part.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:48 AM   #37
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one of the reasons I don't like rest that you can "lock" in the up position. I'll take the old Shaky Hunter any day
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:52 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by texan16 View Post
From looking at the pics of her rest, it is obvious that her vanes are hitting the rest before it drops. However, they will be hitting the rest whether she is shooting broadheads or fieldpoints, so wouldnt the effect be the same and if the bow is tuned right, shouldnt they still impact at the same point (although it is the wrong point). Why would the broadhead hit so much lower? Just trying to understand that part.
Broadhead will magnify any stability issue.

I usually paper tune, then bare shaft tune, then will broadhead tune.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:09 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodtrailer28 View Post
I'm sure she will be just fine without his help.
I'm sure she will and it looks like she is well on her way to a good hunting season. I was just contacted by a few people to help. I do not get on tbh much anymore. Have a great hunting season

Last edited by enewman; 10-12-2017 at 11:12 AM..
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:14 AM   #40
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Plenty of good advice so far.

To set the timing on the rest perfectly it is best to have a draw board.
Start with the rest activation cord tied in to the cable at, or just below, the bottom of the grip of the bow.
Draw the bow on the draw board and adjust the activation cable so that the rest is coming to the fully upright position in the last inch of the draw cycle (or less).

This will give the rest the maximum time to get out of the way.

Make sure the rest isn't bouncing off the shelf when fired and making contact that way.

Ensure that the arrow is level on the string at 90° with the rest in full upright position.

Then paper tune or bareshaft tune, then broadhead tune.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:15 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texan16 View Post
From looking at the pics of her rest, it is obvious that her vanes are hitting the rest before it drops. However, they will be hitting the rest whether she is shooting broadheads or fieldpoints, so wouldnt the effect be the same and if the bow is tuned right, shouldnt they still impact at the same point (although it is the wrong point). Why would the broadhead hit so much lower? Just trying to understand that part.
tail kicks up at the end of it's travel and now steers down. I don't think tuning will do anything until you eliminate contact. I shoot that rest vane down and it clear.

My suggestion either bare shaft or also powder the vane to make sure it's hitting (which i'm pretty sure it is).

I'd either remove the rest and start over with the same rest or consider another. Thats a good rest i've used it on a number of bows and a number of times.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:19 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texan16 View Post
From looking at the pics of her rest, it is obvious that her vanes are hitting the rest before it drops. However, they will be hitting the rest whether she is shooting broadheads or fieldpoints, so wouldnt the effect be the same and if the bow is tuned right, shouldnt they still impact at the same point (although it is the wrong point). Why would the broadhead hit so much lower? Just trying to understand that part.
Here is why...
Let's say that the arrow leaves the bow in a tail high condition.
With a field tip the arrow will correct this attitude via the fletching's stabilization effect.

With a broadhead though, since we also have steering vanes on the front of the shaft, the arrow will actually plane downward to some degree before it is stabilized by the fletching.

With a bareshaft and a field tip the arrow will get no stabilizing effect and will continue to fly in a tail high attitude. This is why we bareshaft tune. When the arrow impacts the target we can then infer what it is doing in flight and make corrections.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:24 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishndude View Post
Yes! Is that an HDX or a Hunter? Cock vane up??

Edit: Just saw it's up but that contact looks like it would have had to have been cock vane down at some point?
I normally do shoot it with the cock vane up. Recently someone suggested turning the cock vane to the 1 or 2 o'clock position for better clearance so I've been doing it that way. The marks on the QAD can't be from the cock vane. They must be from one of the bottom vanes.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to mess with the vane position, making sure it's at 12 oclock and shoot through paper again.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:28 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sika View Post
I normally do shoot it with the cock vane up. Recently someone suggested turning the cock vane to the 1 or 2 o'clock position for better clearance so I've been doing it that way. The marks on the QAD can't be from the cock vane. They must be from one of the bottom vanes.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to mess with the vane position, making sure it's at 12 oclock and shoot through paper again.
If you are trying to find the culprit coating a vane (1 at a time) with a spray powder like release agent or deodorant will help with it.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:01 PM   #45
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Your rest timing is off.

Oops.....I see Rat covered that in post #40

Last edited by Traildust; 10-12-2017 at 01:05 PM..
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:04 PM   #46
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Make sure it's set nock level and the timing marks on the rest line up. After that you can use top cam timing, string suppressor pressure, and placement of the brass nock sets to manipulate nock height tunes
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:08 PM   #47
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In addition to rest timing, I would check rest position in respect to Berger hole. If your rest is not sitting at the right point on the riser, it can be tough to get timing correct. I had this issue with one of the hoyts I had.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:26 PM   #48
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Lipstick on the vane edges works well to find contact areas too.

I revisited your thread today and noticed that your pro shop was stumped by this issue too. I missed that when responding last night. If that's the case, you probably need to start tuning your equipment yourself or find a different shop. This is a really basic setup issue. If they missed it and still don't know what's going on when you describe the problem the way you did for us here regarding the rest adjustments and different broad heads not working, then they just aren't very good at this honestly or they aren't slowing down to pay attention and give you the help you need.

Some have mentioned fast rigs out shooting the drop speed of a qad. With that bow at those specs, bow speed is definitely not the culprit.

Some have mentioned limb driven rests. They don't have the same timing issues and are all I shoot now, but there's no reason you can't tune the qad up to shoot really well. New equipment isn't necessary to fix your issue.

D
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:32 PM   #49
roysmoke
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I shoot with the same rest. I recently moved it to another bow and the shop that swapped it out put a string for the rest that was slightly too small. It would slowly creep and mess with the timing of the rest. Once I replace that string with the thicker one like the original, the problems went away. I'm not sure if that relates to your problem but thought I would share it.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:43 PM   #50
stickbowcoop
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Any good shop should know broadheads amplify any tuning issues. What might look like a porpoise flight with field tips you are seeing a low hit with fixed blades. They should have also diagnosed fletching contact right away.

Make sure the rest is coming up the last 1-2" of the draw. This is more important than the timing marks being 100% lined up. Too early or too late will cause contact issues.

Here is the .pdf for setting up a QAD.

http://www.qadinc.com/wp-content/upl...structions.pdf
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