Reply
Go Back   TexasBowhunter.com Community Discussion Forums > Topics > The Other Side of the Ranch (Firearms)
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2017, 10:10 AM   #1
TxAg
Pope & Young
 
TxAg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default 7.62x39 for hunting

Anyone hunt with one? Seems like it runs a little behind a 30-30 in energy.

CZ makes a cool little gun chambered in it so just curious.


http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-527-carbine-223-rem/
TxAg is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 10:19 AM   #2
Big C
Six Point
 
Big C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Robert Lee
Hunt In: Nolan, Coke, Fisher Counties
Default

Me and my dad killed quite a few deer with his sks when I was growing up and he was teaching me to hunt. Killed everything we pointed it at. Get good ammo and I think it's a good caliber for a kid.
Big C is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 10:19 AM   #3
BLACKFINTURKEY
Ten Point
 
BLACKFINTURKEY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Marion,Texas
Hunt In: Marion,Texas
Default

It'll work just fine. However why not look at A 6.5grendel?
BLACKFINTURKEY is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 10:41 AM   #4
TxAg
Pope & Young
 
TxAg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKFINTURKEY View Post
It'll work just fine. However why not look at A 6.5grendel?
The gun Iím looking at (czís carbine) only comes in 223 and 7.62x39
TxAg is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 10:56 AM   #5
BLACKFINTURKEY
Ten Point
 
BLACKFINTURKEY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Marion,Texas
Hunt In: Marion,Texas
Default

Oh ok both rounds are good for deer 7.62 probably better energy wise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BLACKFINTURKEY is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 11:07 AM   #6
TacticalCowboy
Ten Point
 
TacticalCowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Abilene/San Angelo
Hunt In: Southern Taylor County, Tom Green County
Default

It's got more power than a 300 blackout, which used to be the golden child of AR15 deer calibers.
TacticalCowboy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 11:40 AM   #7
TxAg
Pope & Young
 
TxAg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKFINTURKEY View Post
Oh ok both rounds are good for deer 7.62 probably better energy wise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They do make the 6.5 in their 527 American version. Is it that much better that itís worth considering?
TxAg is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 12:07 PM   #8
Artos
Pope & Young
 
Artos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Deep South TX
Hunt In: Deep South TX
Default

Ruger makes that Zytel 77 in the 7.62x39, but it goes for a pretty penny...not a bad buy if you can buy it right though.
Artos is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 12:38 PM   #9
BLACKFINTURKEY
Ten Point
 
BLACKFINTURKEY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Marion,Texas
Hunt In: Marion,Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
They do make the 6.5 in their 527 American version. Is it that much better that itís worth considering?
In my opinion yes. 6.5 is a much better bullet, better selection of ammo, better ballistics, little less recoil, better sectional density. But they will both get it done.
BLACKFINTURKEY is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 12:38 PM   #10
LWD
Ten Point
 
LWD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Grapevine
Hunt In: Young County and anywhere else I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
Anyone hunt with one? Seems like it runs a little behind a 30-30 in energy.

CZ makes a cool little gun chambered in it so just curious.


http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-527-carbine-223-rem/
Just use a soft point bullet and you'll be fine. It's a relatively low velocity round, so know the trajectory and keeps shots closer.

LWD
LWD is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 01:03 PM   #11
TxAg
Pope & Young
 
TxAg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKFINTURKEY View Post
In my opinion yes. 6.5 is a much better bullet, better selection of ammo, better ballistics, little less recoil, better sectional density. But they will both get it done.
Man, now you have my wheels turning. That 6.5 out of the 527ís 24Ē barrel carries more than 1000# of energy out to 300 yds with nearly zero recoil
TxAg is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 01:05 PM   #12
BLACKFINTURKEY
Ten Point
 
BLACKFINTURKEY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Marion,Texas
Hunt In: Marion,Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
Man, now you have my wheels turning. That 6.5 out of the 527ís 24Ē barrel carries more than 1000# of energy out to 300 yds with nearly zero recoil


I'd go 6.5 Grendel all day over 7.62. I built a Grendel and have yet to kill with it but shoots great. I hunt with a 260 rem and love it have killed to 650 yards with it. Look up YouTube 6.5 Grendel kills it's a very capable round.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BLACKFINTURKEY is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 01:33 PM   #13
Mike D
Pope & Young
 
Mike D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Texas
Hunt In: Haskell County, TX
Default

I donít know why you would. Hunting Ammo selection is very limited at best. Itís not like you would buy it for cheap Ammo for high volume shooting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Mike D is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 01:37 PM   #14
Quanah11
Eight Point
 
Quanah11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Legion Valley, Llano
Hunt In: Langtry, Mason, Llano, Alpine
Default

Ruger offers a American Ranch model in 7.62x39
I just picked one up I love it more than the CZ one.
The CZ feels cheaper built than how it looks in pictures.
The Ruger one seems much better built. Not to mention it's less expensive than the CZ and it takes mini 30 mags
Quanah11 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 01:44 PM   #15
TxAg
Pope & Young
 
TxAg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quanah11 View Post
Ruger offers a American Ranch model in 7.62x39
I just picked one up I love it more than the CZ one.
The CZ feels cheaper built than how it looks in pictures.
The Ruger one seems much better built. Not to mention it's less expensive than the CZ and it takes mini 30 mags
Good to know. Havenít handled one yet. I am very fond of my CZ 557 and 455 though...they are built well and look great.
TxAg is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 01:49 PM   #16
rebelbow
Ten Point
 
rebelbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: east texas
Hunt In: tx,ks,ok
Default

I've shot several pigs with my mini 30 in 7.62 x 39 with cheap soft points, works great!
But I do limit my shots to 100 yds or less
But a 6.5 Grendel sounds fun too!
rebelbow is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 04:10 PM   #17
BLACKFINTURKEY
Ten Point
 
BLACKFINTURKEY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Marion,Texas
Hunt In: Marion,Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
I donít know why you would. Hunting Ammo selection is very limited at best. Itís not like you would buy it for cheap Ammo for high volume shooting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
This is spot on. Grendel has some great ammo for it and its cheap, my 20" shilen ar15 shoots 123 eldx hornady 3/4" groups at 100 yards. I really don't think the 7.62 will produce the same results with the very limited ammo on the market.
BLACKFINTURKEY is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-15-2017, 04:43 PM   #18
Buckwheat
Pope & Young
 
Buckwheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Clifton,Tx
Hunt In: Bosque County
Default

Yes. Works great. Have one in AR platform

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Buckwheat is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 01:05 AM   #19
snipermedic
Ten Point
 
snipermedic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Palacios,Wharton,Brazoria
Hunt In: Arkansas
Default

There is currently 2 other threads on this topic. Unless I'm trying out a new gun or bullet I'm exclusively using a 7.62x39 when I know my shots are under 300. I use the wolf military classic 124HP or the performance 125sp. The hornady sst work ok but the cheap stuff does just as good. It's my kid gun and my loaner gun. I can't think of a better kid or wife option. CZ makes a good gun but Howa is my favorite. Ruger American for a truck gun do to the mags and my coveted zytel boat paddle is the crown jewel.

Only issue I have is the only cheap ammo is FMJ with the 6.5 Grendel and if I'm spending that much I'm shooting something better. And I will not nor will I let someone use a 223 especially a new hunter. 7.62x39 in Texas 200 and under is the ticket. It's also my long range trainer. Just by the dang thing.
snipermedic is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 02:11 PM   #20
mikerosa
Four Point
 
mikerosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Default

I took my buddy boar hunting years ago. He was using his Ruger Ranch Rifle. I told him to shoot straight in the head.

A 300+ boar hog steps out and he put the hammer down on it. 30 yard shot, head hit the ground before itís gut did, few leg kicks and it was done.

Made scrambled eggs outta its brains.

Was using a NATO round with a wire core too ! That skull forced it to expand just the same ! Was a perfect bullet actually for such a hard surface. I donít think a hollow point would have penetrated as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mikerosa is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 02:49 PM   #21
Outbreaker
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerosa View Post
I took my buddy boar hunting years ago. He was using his Ruger Ranch Rifle. I told him to shoot straight in the head.

A 300+ boar hog steps out and he put the hammer down on it. 30 yard shot, head hit the ground before itís gut did, few leg kicks and it was done.

Made scrambled eggs outta its brains.

Was using a NATO round with a wire core too ! That skull forced it to expand just the same ! Was a perfect bullet actually for such a hard surface. I donít think a hollow point would have penetrated as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
FYI NATO does not make a 7.62x39 round.
Outbreaker is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 03:21 PM   #22
snipermedic
Ten Point
 
snipermedic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Palacios,Wharton,Brazoria
Hunt In: Arkansas
Default

I'm sure they do make(contract) it but it's on of those things you will hear about.
snipermedic is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 03:57 PM   #23
Clay C
Ten Point
 
Clay C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Conroe
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snipermedic View Post
I'm sure they do make(contract) it but it's on of those things you will hear about.
I don't think 7.62X39 has ever been a NATO round.
Clay C is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 04:52 PM   #24
SabreKiller
Ten Point
 
SabreKiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Kerrville, Texas
Hunt In: I used to hunt in Culberson County, but now I hunt in Val Verde County.
Default

I'd stear away from the carbine and get the regular model. I have one in .223 and its a tack driver. I'm thinking about one in .222 now.
SabreKiller is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 06:47 PM   #25
mikerosa
Four Point
 
mikerosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outbreaker View Post
FYI NATO does not make a 7.62x39 round.


I really donít know personally except maybe the 5.56 but I THINK he told me NATO. But why would it have a wire core ?

Who knows or cares frankly. All I can say is when you pop a 300+ pound boar hog that has about 50 pounds of cahonnes and it drops like a dead bug, thatís saying something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mikerosa is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 09:34 PM   #26
TxAg
Pope & Young
 
TxAg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreKiller View Post
I'd stear away from the carbine and get the regular model. I have one in .223 and its a tack driver. I'm thinking about one in .222 now.
As in the 527 American instead of the 527 Carbine?
TxAg is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 09:35 PM   #27
TexasRough1256
Nubbin' Buck
 
TexasRough1256's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Default

works great on pigs, never tried on deer
TexasRough1256 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 10:26 PM   #28
kmon
Eight Point
 
kmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Hunt In: Texas and Mississippi mostly
Default

the little CZ carbine works and shoots good for a 7.62X39. The rifle in my avatar started out as a carbine but after shooting the Grendel in an AR for a while I wanted a bolt action so a CZ 527 carbine became a CZ 527 in 6.5 Grendel with a barrel swap out, did a little more work than just the barrel with a good pillar and glass bed job, that little rifle shoots better than I can. For a 7lb rifle loaded and scoped it shoots some tiny groups or course the single set trigger at 8oz helps get those tiny groups.

I did that conversion a couple years before CZ decided to chamber the Grendel in the American. No regrets.

The stock on the CZ for bolt clearance is low at the comb and a good pack like the triad stock bag with a bit of build up foam helps get a really good cheek weld. That has been added since the pic was taken.

As far as Grendel Vs. 7.62X39 which I have killed a few deer and hogs with, I will take the Grendel every time and twice on Sunday for a hunting round. With a 24 inch barrel there are loads that deliver more energy at 400 yards than the 243 and will do it with noticeably less felt recoil. The higher sectional density bullets of the Grendel will penetrate better than the lower SD bullets of the 39 and my examination of hogs and deer after the kill have shown this to be true.

Howa is also chambering their mini action in the Grendel and a barreled action from them in an LSS chassis makes for a sweet rifle that is light weight and it uses an AR buttstock so LOP can easily be adjusted for all sizes.

As I have gotten older I have learned to appreciate light rifles with light recoil. Having taken deer and hogs with over 30 different calibers over the years the Grendel and 357 Marlin 1894 get more hunting time from me than the rest combined.
kmon is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 10:45 PM   #29
TxAg
Pope & Young
 
TxAg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default

I couldn't take it anymore

I found a good deal on a 527 in 6.5 Grendel. Looking forward to a lightweight shooter with next to no recoil.

Now i gota find a scope to compliment it.
TxAg is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-16-2017, 11:58 PM   #30
kmon
Eight Point
 
kmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Hunt In: Texas and Mississippi mostly
Default

If you want a rail type mount on it look at the DIP Industries rails. So far so good in a couple years of using one.

http://www.diproductsinc.com/Search.aspx?TERM=527
kmon is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-17-2017, 07:59 AM   #31
Outbreaker
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerosa View Post
I really donít know personally except maybe the 5.56 but I THINK he told me NATO. But why would it have a wire core ?

Who knows or cares frankly. All I can say is when you pop a 300+ pound boar hog that has about 50 pounds of cahonnes and it drops like a dead bug, thatís saying something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Could be eastern bloc mil surplus. Sine it was their round.
Outbreaker is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 04:00 AM   #32
geezer56
Four Point
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Default

I have an AR (Or 3) in 7.62X39. With the Tula 154 gr SP it is a pig thumper. I just bought a Ruger bolt gun, it is going to get to wear the NV and play with pigs at night.
geezer56 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 07:59 AM   #33
Livin'2hunt
Ten Point
 
Livin'2hunt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Hunt In: my birthday suit
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
I donít know why you would. Hunting Ammo selection is very limited at best. Itís not like you would buy it for cheap Ammo for high volume shooting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Precisely. I hunted with a guy who owned the exact CZ rifle you are considering. He killed a deer with it but the bullet selection for hunting is next to zero. He shot it with an FMJ and I was p*ssed. I would go with the Grendel if you want something that small. The 6.5 bullets available for hunting are animal stoppers with a broader selection.

Personally, I have gone to a 260 Rem and I don't think a better deer cartridge has been developed. It is a vicious little round.
Livin'2hunt is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 01:17 PM   #34
whiskers
Nubbin' Buck
 
whiskers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Terrapin Station
Hunt In: Gonzalez Co.
Default

Me and my oldest son have AR's in 7.62x39. We love the cheap ammo for targets. We both harvested deer and turkeys last gun season with them. Quick one shot kills with Z-Max. Mine is from Windham with a 3x9 scope and a ten round magazine. I'd add a pic if I knew how. ( old guy, tech. limited ) I like them. Does as well as my 30-30 I think. You'll get lots of opinions from folks who haven't hunted with them. Just my two cents.

Last edited by whiskers; 10-19-2017 at 01:23 PM.. Reason: I misspelled the ammo name.
whiskers is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 02:52 PM   #35
snipermedic
Ten Point
 
snipermedic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Palacios,Wharton,Brazoria
Hunt In: Arkansas
Default

I'm sorry but ammo selection for hunting with the 7.62x39 is far from limited. Remington federal Winchester hornady. Then we have the custom manufacturers and then we can talk about the imports. 4 shooters 3 guns 3 different steel case loads over last 5 years. Don't mean to start a heated debate but when it comes to x39 I know my stuff. And when I say the ones shot with the wolf did not move a step I mean it. Down DRT. Under 200-300 yards the 7.62x39 is the low recoil lighting bolt on the cheap. Is the Grendel a good hunting round sure but not for .22 cents a round.
snipermedic is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 03:36 PM   #36
Livin'2hunt
Ten Point
 
Livin'2hunt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Hunt In: my birthday suit
Default

Interesting stuff, Snipermedic. It's been a few seasons since I researched the subject so apparently, much has changed. When did Hornady start offering the SST in x39? BTW, I'm not a fan of steel cases for accuracy sports like hunting but it seems to serve you well. I'm glad you chimed in.
Livin'2hunt is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 03:41 PM   #37
TxAg
Pope & Young
 
TxAg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
I couldn't take it anymore

I found a good deal on a 527 in 6.5 Grendel. Looking forward to a lightweight shooter with next to no recoil.

Now i gota find a scope to compliment it.


Gun is shipping!
TxAg is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 04:58 PM   #38
Mike D
Pope & Young
 
Mike D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: North Texas
Hunt In: Haskell County, TX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snipermedic View Post
I'm sorry but ammo selection for hunting with the 7.62x39 is far from limited. Remington federal Winchester hornady. Then we have the custom manufacturers and then we can talk about the imports. 4 shooters 3 guns 3 different steel case loads over last 5 years. Don't mean to start a heated debate but when it comes to x39 I know my stuff. And when I say the ones shot with the wolf did not move a step I mean it. Down DRT. Under 200-300 yards the 7.62x39 is the low recoil lighting bolt on the cheap. Is the Grendel a good hunting round sure but not for .22 cents a round.


I donít think anyone was suggesting that the round would not work. Heck just about any round will kill deer or pigs. Itís just there are better choices with better selections of ammo. Cheap ammo is not even a consideration iin a low-volume hunting caliber at least not for me anyway. I always try to choose the best tool for the job. And to me 7.62 x 39 isnít it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Mike D is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 05:03 PM   #39
Chance.F92
Spike
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Brazoria
Hunt In: Gillespie
Default

Its a .30 Caliber gun it will do the trick, Just dont go shooting out to 200+ yards with it.
Chance.F92 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 05:21 PM   #40
Mesquite Archer
Eight Point
 
Mesquite Archer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Mesquite, TX
Hunt In: Whitney / Abilene, KS
Default

Same as others have said for .223/5.56, save the FMJ surplus for plinking and use a well constructed SP bullet designed to expand and keep the range reasonable.
Mesquite Archer is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-19-2017, 05:27 PM   #41
kmon
Eight Point
 
kmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Hunt In: Texas and Mississippi mostly
Default

Keeping the range within a distance most shoot at lots of cartridges will work including the 7.62X39. Inside a couple hundred yards it works but from my experience the lower sectional density bullets do not penetrate as well as the same construction bullet from a 6.5 Grendel which makes sense.

I have killed a few deer with an old SKS back in the early 90s using Winchester 123gr soft point bullets is my only experience with it, broad side shots it works fine and will inside 200 yards but quartering shots left me less than impressed, sure they worked some of the time but there were a couple shots where I only knew what they did by good follow up shots.

With the 6.5 I have not seen those issues and have killed enough with 6.5s of various flavors to know what to expect.

On a shooting bet at a friends range I busted a few water jugs with the SKS and Winchester SP loads. 200 yards they still had some expansion, 300 and 400 yards left a 30cal hole in and 30cal hole on exit, no expansion. Shoot a Jug with a Grendel and Hornady SST, A-Max or ELD bullets at 500 and a water jug comes apart.

To the OP glad you found a Grendel at a good price, hope it shoots as good as my custom one does.
kmon is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 10-23-2017, 09:28 AM   #42
Roger_Roger
Eight Point
 
Roger_Roger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: E-Tex
Hunt In: Anderson Co.
Default

Following
Roger_Roger is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2012, TexasBowhunter.com