Reply
Go Back   TexasBowhunter.com Community Discussion Forums > Topics > Game Management/Age & Score/Trailcam Pics
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2018, 08:11 PM   #1
venado
Ten Point
 
venado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seguin, TX
Hunt In: Webb, Guadalupe and Caldwell Countys
Default More Culling Info

https://www.mossyoak.com/our-obsessi...ics-by-culling
venado is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-04-2018, 09:10 AM   #2
antonlsu
Four Point
 
antonlsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Seabrook TX
Hunt In: Victoria TX & SW MO
Default

Good read, thanks!
antonlsu is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-04-2018, 09:32 AM   #3
Javelin
Pope & Young
 
Javelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lufkin
Hunt In: Northern Polk County on the river, Houston County
Default

great read.
Javelin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-04-2018, 09:56 AM   #4
Mexico
Pope & Young
 
Mexico's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Clear Lake Tx
Hunt In: Old Mexico, Centerville Tx
Default

You cannot affect genetics as a hunter, and you cannot influence genetics through selective culling in wild deer populations.” ..... only sentence in the article that needs to be read. I've been saying this for years, unless you're high fenced you will not alter your herds genetic plain. And if you are high fenced it still takes years to manipulate your genetics....
Mexico is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-04-2018, 09:58 AM   #5
Rwc
Ten Point
 
Rwc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crawford, Texas
Default

I enjoyed that read, but again its easy to enjoy an article you agree with.......

Rwc
Rwc is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-04-2018, 10:16 AM   #6
Javelin
Pope & Young
 
Javelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lufkin
Hunt In: Northern Polk County on the river, Houston County
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
You cannot affect genetics as a hunter, and you cannot influence genetics through selective culling in wild deer populations.” ..... only sentence in the article that needs to be read. I've been saying this for years, unless you're high fenced you will not alter your herds genetic plain. And if you are high fenced it still takes years to manipulate your genetics....
Totally agree. It sure is hard when talking to other hunters that believe genetics is as simple as big bucks make big bucks and little bucks make little bucks.
Javelin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-06-2018, 11:11 PM   #7
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Low Fence, yeah it would take a long long time. Bucks just travel too far this way and that way.

High Fence and introduced Texas pen raised genetics, totally different Animal.
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-07-2018, 09:37 PM   #8
MQ32Shooter
Pope & Young
 
MQ32Shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garland, Texas
Hunt In: Cisco, Texas
Default

Great read! Especially the part where he says if a buck steps into your shooting lane that you want, then take the shot. Sure wish the State of Texas would allow me to do that.
MQ32Shooter is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-07-2018, 10:17 PM   #9
Peyton
Pope & Young
 
Peyton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corsicana
Hunt In: Carrizo Springs
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Low Fence, yeah it would take a long long time. Bucks just travel too far this way and that way.

High Fence and introduced Texas pen raised genetics, totally different Animal.


Wait, you jumped animals. Once genetics are introduced, you’re dealing with a different animal. Fencing in native deer and managing is completely different than introducing genetics when discussing culling.
Peyton is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-07-2018, 10:34 PM   #10
Black Ice
Pope & Young
 
Black Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baton Rouge
Hunt In: Jefferson & Brooks County
Default

Marked to read later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Black Ice is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 09:11 AM   #11
Top Of Texas
Eight Point
 
Top Of Texas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Texas Panhandle
Hunt In: Panhandle
Default

Hoorah! The public tide is turning.
Top Of Texas is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 09:40 AM   #12
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
Wait, you jumped animals. Once genetics are introduced, you’re dealing with a different animal. Fencing in native deer and managing is completely different than introducing genetics when discussing culling.
Yes, a far superior Whitetail. And it All has to do with genetics. You high fence boys have the edge on low fence because you are restricting movement and keeping the deer from being killed by neighbors. Culling(killing) on your places will make a difference. I have the edge on you high fence boys because I am controlling the breeding, only the best to the best, year in and year out.
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 10:13 AM   #13
Encinal
Pope & Young
 
Encinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Location, Location
Hunt In: Spite of Wife's Complaints
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Yes, a far superior Whitetail. And it All has to do with genetics. You high fence boys have the edge on low fence because you are restricting movement and keeping the deer from being killed by neighbors. Culling(killing) on your places will make a difference. I have the edge on you high fence boys because I am controlling the breeding, only the best to the best, year in and year out.
Edge? You don’t have an edge. You are raising hybrids and trying to call them superior to natives.

They aren’t superior, they are different. In fact most breeder deer are inferior when correctly compared to other breeder deer, because they all fall on a curve as well.

Apples and Oranges need to get compared to other apples and other oranges. If you have a rotten orange, don’t try to convince everyone else that it’s really a ripe apple.
Encinal is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 10:19 AM   #14
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Edge? You don’t have an edge. You are raising hybrids and trying to call them superior to natives.

They aren’t superior, they are different. In fact most breeder deer are inferior when correctly compared to other breeder deer, because they all fall on a curve as well.

Apples and Oranges need to get compared to other apples and other oranges. If you have a rotten orange, don’t try to convince everyone else that it’s really a ripe apple.
Lol, how is breeding a Whitetail to a Whitetail a hybrid?
If you are such a "purist" then take down that top 4 feet of fence and those pellet feeders and let nature take it's course.
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 10:41 AM   #15
Peyton
Pope & Young
 
Peyton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corsicana
Hunt In: Carrizo Springs
Default

I have over 4 miles of high fence to keep one neighbor’s frankendeer off my property. If one were to break into my ranch, he’d be shot on sight.
Peyton is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 10:49 AM   #16
Antlers86
Associate Sponsor
 
Antlers86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Athens
Hunt In: Jack/Coleman/Henderson
Default

Tagged
Antlers86 is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 10:50 AM   #17
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
I have over 4 miles of high fence to keep one neighbor’s frankendeer off my property. If one were to break into my ranch, he’d be shot on sight.
And to keep "your" big 3, 4 and 5 year olds from breaking into the neighbors ranch and being shot on sight.
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 11:05 AM   #18
Peyton
Pope & Young
 
Peyton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corsicana
Hunt In: Carrizo Springs
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
And to keep "your" big 3, 4 and 5 year olds from breaking into the neighbors ranch and being shot on sight.


Any other TDA responses to justify your science project?
Peyton is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 11:18 AM   #19
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
Any other TDA responses to justify your science project?
Not a member and have never even been to an event.
I prefer to do things my way , just like you do things your way.
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 11:58 AM   #20
Jamesl
Ten Point
 
Jamesl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: League City
Hunt In: Texas, Colorado, New Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
You cannot affect genetics as a hunter, and you cannot influence genetics through selective culling in wild deer populations.” ..... only sentence in the article that needs to be read. I've been saying this for years, unless you're high fenced you will not alter your herds genetic plain. And if you are high fenced it still takes years to manipulate your genetics....
Would you leave any of these deer pictured below running around on your property? I am thinking you would say no, that you would kill (cull) them from the herd. And there would be several reasons for this. Taking a mouth out of the equation, mature bucks dispersing younger bucks to new areas and undesirable genetics. If a buck is dead prior to the rut, then he will not breed that year and the years after. Yes he has bred since he was 1.5 yrs old and has made a few bucks and does with his genetic characteristics. But you can't say that by killing true inferior bucks, you don't help the herd a little bit.
Attached Images
     
Jamesl is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 12:20 PM   #21
lovemylegacy
Pope & Young
 
lovemylegacy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mauriceville
Hunt In: SETx,La,Il,Ks,Mo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
You cannot affect genetics as a hunter, and you cannot influence genetics through selective culling in wild deer populations.” ..... only sentence in the article that needs to be read. I've been saying this for years, unless you're high fenced you will not alter your herds genetic plain. And if you are high fenced it still takes years to manipulate your genetics....
True! The only genetics a hunter can affect, is the buck or doe he is about to shoot. Their genetics will no longer be in the pool
lovemylegacy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 12:27 PM   #22
lovemylegacy
Pope & Young
 
lovemylegacy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mauriceville
Hunt In: SETx,La,Il,Ks,Mo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesl View Post
Would you leave any of these deer pictured below running around on your property? I am thinking you would say no, that you would kill (cull) them from the herd. And there would be several reasons for this. Taking a mouth out of the equation, mature bucks dispersing younger bucks to new areas and undesirable genetics. If a buck is dead prior to the rut, then he will not breed that year and the years after. Yes he has bred since he was 1.5 yrs old and has made a few bucks and does with his genetic characteristics. But you can't say that by killing true inferior bucks, you don't help the herd a little bit.
Im just gonna say this. Just because those bucks have "inferior" antlers does not mean they have inferior genetics. For instance, my wife and I are regular sized people, our 1st born is 6'2'', I am 5'9". My grandmother on my dads' side are all tall people...6' plus all of them.
My point is so called "superior" genetics can be passed down through so called "inferior" stock.
By the way, how do you determine which doe to shoot, she is actually the biggest influence in superior genetics?
lovemylegacy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 12:52 PM   #23
Mexico
Pope & Young
 
Mexico's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Clear Lake Tx
Hunt In: Old Mexico, Centerville Tx
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesl View Post
Would you leave any of these deer pictured below running around on your property? I am thinking you would say no, that you would kill (cull) them from the herd. And there would be several reasons for this. Taking a mouth out of the equation, mature bucks dispersing younger bucks to new areas and undesirable genetics. If a buck is dead prior to the rut, then he will not breed that year and the years after. Yes he has bred since he was 1.5 yrs old and has made a few bucks and does with his genetic characteristics. But you can't say that by killing true inferior bucks, you don't help the herd a little bit.
If you're low fence you've done nothing except shoot a few bucks. The genetic evolution of a whitetail has taken 10s of thousands of years to evolve. You shooting a few did absolutely nothing except remove a few mouths out of your feeders. Where did he come from? Who was his momma? Who was his daddy? No way of telling. Their mother could be from 3 ranches over ( strictly talking low fence) and will probably off spring more fawns that could potentially end up on your ranch.
Would we have shot them? Yes. Because people pay me to shoot them, but I realize it did very little for my ranch(genetically), and saves me money on my overall protien bill.
Mexico is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 01:03 PM   #24
Encinal
Pope & Young
 
Encinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Location, Location
Hunt In: Spite of Wife's Complaints
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Lol, how is breeding a Whitetail to a Whitetail a hybrid?
.
O. v. borealis – northern white-tailed deer (the largest and darkest of the white-tailed deer)
O. v. carminis – Carmen Mountains white-tailed deer (Texas-Mexico border)
O. v. clavium – Key deer or Florida Keys white-tailed deer (the smallest North American subspecies, found in the lower Florida Keys; an example of insular dwarfism)
O. v. chiriquensis – Chiriqui white-tailed deer (Panama)
O. v. couesi – Coues' white-tailed deer, Arizona white-tailed deer, or fantail deer
O. v. dakotensis – Dakota white-tailed deer or northern plains white-tailed deer (most northerly distribution, rivals the northern white-tailed deer in size)
O. v. hiltonensis – Hilton Head Island white-tailed deer
O. v. idahoensis – white-tailed deer (western Canada, Idaho, eastern Washington)[7]
O. v. leucurus – Columbian white-tailed deer (Oregon and western coastal area)
O. v. macrourus – Kansas white-tailed deer
O. v. mcilhennyi – Avery Island white-tailed deer
O. v. mexicanus – Mexican white-tailed deer (central Mexico)
O. v. miquihuanensis – Miquihuan white-tailed deer (central Mexico)
O. v. nelsoni – Chiapas white-tailed deer (southern Mexico and Guatemala)
O. v. nigribarbis – Blackbeard Island white-tailed deer
O. v. oaxacensis – Oaxaca white-tailed deer (southern Mexico)
O. v. ochrourus – northwestern white-tailed deer or northern Rocky Mountains white-tailed deer
O. v. osceola – Florida coastal white-tailed deer
O. v. rothschildi – Coiba Island white-tailed deer
O. v. seminolus – Florida white-tailed deer
O. v. sinaloae – Sinaloa white-tailed deer (midwestern Mexico)
O. v. taurinsulae – Bulls Island white-tailed deer (Bulls Island, South Carolina)
O. v. texanus – Texas white-tailed deer
O. v. thomasi – Mexican lowland white-tailed deer
O. v. toltecus – rain forest white-tailed deer (southern Mexico)
O. v. truei – Central American white-tailed deer (Costa Rica, Nicaragua and adjacent states)
O. v. venatorius – Hunting Island white-tailed deer (Hunting Island, South Carolina)
O. v. veraecrucis – northern Veracruz white-tailed deer
O. v. virginianus – Virginia white-tailed deer or southern white-tailed deer
O. v. yucatanensis – Yucatán white-tailed deer


Thats how.

You don't get to promote science, then call them all the same thing because that's what a scoring system says.

You chose a phenotipic trait you liked, then crossbred that phenotipic trait with climactic adaptation of another subspecies. Good job. Fascinating. All of those things. But don't compare breeder deer with native deer.

Your specific breeder deer need to be compared with all the rest, then your community can tell us who is the best and we will pay attention to them as the best of the best of the breeders.

You don't get to dump an elephant into the hippo pond and brag about having the best long nosed hippo.
Encinal is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 01:11 PM   #25
WItoTX
Ten Point
 
WItoTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Katy
Hunt In: Wisconsin, New Mexico, Colorado, Montana
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovemylegacy View Post
By the way, how do you determine which doe to shoot, she is actually the biggest influence in superior genetics?
A doe contributes 50% of the genetics. No more, no less. To assert a fawn will receive more than 50% of its genetics from any one parent isn't true. However, mom will have a greater influence on the health of the fawn, as the fawn lives with her for the first year.

True culling is the removal of mouths to feed on the land so that way each animal gets adequate food, water, and shelter. With those three things, even small bucks will become big fast. How a person determines which deer are "culls" is up to the individual landowner though.
WItoTX is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 01:28 PM   #26
Texas Kidd
Four Point
 
Texas Kidd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brownsville, Texas
Hunt In: Dryden, Texas
Default

Interesting conversation.
Texas Kidd is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 01:37 PM   #27
Jamesl
Ten Point
 
Jamesl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: League City
Hunt In: Texas, Colorado, New Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovemylegacy View Post
Im just gonna say this. Just because those bucks have "inferior" antlers does not mean they have inferior genetics. For instance, my wife and I are regular sized people, our 1st born is 6'2'', I am 5'9". My grandmother on my dads' side are all tall people...6' plus all of them.
My point is so called "superior" genetics can be passed down through so called "inferior" stock.
By the way, how do you determine which doe to shoot, she is actually the biggest influence in superior genetics?
We don't know about the doe we shoot. Not arguing that. I'm just saying that in our situation, we are above carrying capacity by choice. We provide all the supplemental feed the deer can consume. We have to remove deer from the herd. We take a very small percentage of trophies because we would rather let them live longer/breed, even though according to the biologists on here, there is absolutely no benefits to doing so. We try to determine the mature bucks that to us, are undesirable, and cull them out of the herd, which again has absolutely no benefit genetically speaking. To me, it's more about removing mature dominate bucks that we don't want bullying young bucks and eating supplemental feed. Whether it helps genetics, is a non issue.
Jamesl is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 01:45 PM   #28
Jamesl
Ten Point
 
Jamesl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: League City
Hunt In: Texas, Colorado, New Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
If you're low fence you've done nothing except shoot a few bucks. The genetic evolution of a whitetail has taken 10s of thousands of years to evolve. You shooting a few did absolutely nothing except remove a few mouths out of your feeders. Where did he come from? Who was his momma? Who was his daddy? No way of telling. Their mother could be from 3 ranches over ( strictly talking low fence) and will probably off spring more fawns that could potentially end up on your ranch.
Would we have shot them? Yes. Because people pay me to shoot them, but I realize it did very little for my ranch(genetically), and saves me money on my overall protien bill.
No one can answer that on a low fence ranch. All I know is bucks like I posted above stopped being Daddy's when they took dirt naps. That can't be a bad thing.
Jamesl is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 01:49 PM   #29
Top Of Texas
Eight Point
 
Top Of Texas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Texas Panhandle
Hunt In: Panhandle
Default

I'm not aware of it being published yet, but there's some more research coming out of Kingsville that will further dubunk culling, even behind high fence.
Top Of Texas is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 02:12 PM   #30
Encinal
Pope & Young
 
Encinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Location, Location
Hunt In: Spite of Wife's Complaints
Default

What you have to worry about on the “culling doesn’t work” arguments is what they are talking about when it comes to moving the needle.

Combinations of does/bucks determine offspring with phenotypic traits... while in the long run it may not make a hill of beans difference if you kill one buck over another or one for over another, once a buck or doe manifests that can throw larger offspring, you might as well ride the pony as long as you can.

People ask me all the time how we had those two huge deer within 3 years... It’s obviously extremely unlikely that the same ranch would have such a conflagration of weather and genetics so close together..... but is it less likely to happen there or somewhere else? Obviously we had a buck/doe combination push out one big buck... however unlikely could that same combination have happened again? Could that have made the ranch MORE likely at that time to produce those deer? Dunno... obviously it would be better for us if there were multiple ways to get there and the two deer weren’t closely related.
Encinal is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 02:16 PM   #31
elgato
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Default

I’m going to shoot that ‘inferior ‘ buck to improve the genetics on my ranch. But I’m shooting that trophy cause...he’s a trophy. Hmmm seems counterintuitive to me.


Every study without fail I have ever seen showes culling a genetic impossibility.
elgato is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 02:19 PM   #32
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
O. v. borealis – northern white-tailed deer (the largest and darkest of the white-tailed deer)
O. v. carminis – Carmen Mountains white-tailed deer (Texas-Mexico border)
O. v. clavium – Key deer or Florida Keys white-tailed deer (the smallest North American subspecies, found in the lower Florida Keys; an example of insular dwarfism)
O. v. chiriquensis – Chiriqui white-tailed deer (Panama)
O. v. couesi – Coues' white-tailed deer, Arizona white-tailed deer, or fantail deer
O. v. dakotensis – Dakota white-tailed deer or northern plains white-tailed deer (most northerly distribution, rivals the northern white-tailed deer in size)
O. v. hiltonensis – Hilton Head Island white-tailed deer
O. v. idahoensis – white-tailed deer (western Canada, Idaho, eastern Washington)[7]
O. v. leucurus – Columbian white-tailed deer (Oregon and western coastal area)
O. v. macrourus – Kansas white-tailed deer
O. v. mcilhennyi – Avery Island white-tailed deer
O. v. mexicanus – Mexican white-tailed deer (central Mexico)
O. v. miquihuanensis – Miquihuan white-tailed deer (central Mexico)
O. v. nelsoni – Chiapas white-tailed deer (southern Mexico and Guatemala)
O. v. nigribarbis – Blackbeard Island white-tailed deer
O. v. oaxacensis – Oaxaca white-tailed deer (southern Mexico)
O. v. ochrourus – northwestern white-tailed deer or northern Rocky Mountains white-tailed deer
O. v. osceola – Florida coastal white-tailed deer
O. v. rothschildi – Coiba Island white-tailed deer
O. v. seminolus – Florida white-tailed deer
O. v. sinaloae – Sinaloa white-tailed deer (midwestern Mexico)
O. v. taurinsulae – Bulls Island white-tailed deer (Bulls Island, South Carolina)
O. v. texanus – Texas white-tailed deer
O. v. thomasi – Mexican lowland white-tailed deer
O. v. toltecus – rain forest white-tailed deer (southern Mexico)
O. v. truei – Central American white-tailed deer (Costa Rica, Nicaragua and adjacent states)
O. v. venatorius – Hunting Island white-tailed deer (Hunting Island, South Carolina)
O. v. veraecrucis – northern Veracruz white-tailed deer
O. v. virginianus – Virginia white-tailed deer or southern white-tailed deer
O. v. yucatanensis – Yucatán white-tailed deer


Thats how.

You don't get to promote science, then call them all the same thing because that's what a scoring system says.

You chose a phenotipic trait you liked, then crossbred that phenotipic trait with climactic adaptation of another subspecies. Good job. Fascinating. All of those things. But don't compare breeder deer with native deer.

Your specific breeder deer need to be compared with all the rest, then your community can tell us who is the best and we will pay attention to them as the best of the best of the breeders.

You don't get to dump an elephant into the hippo pond and brag about having the best long nosed hippo.
Thanks for the compliment.
The only way we can tell which deer I have released on the ranch is the ear tag, and of course the LARGER antlers.
Other than that they are indistinguishable from our so called native South Texas deer.
Same color, 4 legs, 2 eyes, 2 ears, 1 nose, 1 mouth, etc etc. Just BIGGER antlers
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 02:26 PM   #33
Javelin
Pope & Young
 
Javelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lufkin
Hunt In: Northern Polk County on the river, Houston County
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesl View Post
Would you leave any of these deer pictured below running around on your property? I am thinking you would say no, that you would kill (cull) them from the herd. And there would be several reasons for this. Taking a mouth out of the equation, mature bucks dispersing younger bucks to new areas and undesirable genetics. If a buck is dead prior to the rut, then he will not breed that year and the years after. Yes he has bred since he was 1.5 yrs old and has made a few bucks and does with his genetic characteristics. But you can't say that by killing true inferior bucks, you don't help the herd a little bit.
I would have no problem letting them live on my place. if I killed them I would not call them culls. I would call them bucks. the most important thing is to keep population numbers balanced age and sex wise. if a buck is 5.5 or older he is a shooter. absolutely nothing under 4.5 dies
Javelin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 02:34 PM   #34
Encinal
Pope & Young
 
Encinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Location, Location
Hunt In: Spite of Wife's Complaints
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Thanks for the compliment.
The only way we can tell which deer I have released on the ranch is the ear tag, and of course the LARGER antlers.
Other than that they are indistinguishable from our so called native South Texas deer.
Same color, 4 legs, 2 eyes, 2 ears, 1 nose, 1 mouth, etc etc. Just BIGGER antlers
Bet you $1000 I could tell one of your deer from one of ours just based on body and coloration over 80% of the time. That’s giving me free money.
Encinal is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 03:11 PM   #35
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Bet you $1000 I could tell one of your deer from one of ours just based on body and coloration over 80% of the time. That’s giving me free money.
On your ranch you probably could, but I bet you already know every deer on there.
They probably all have names, Am I right??
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 03:33 PM   #36
Encinal
Pope & Young
 
Encinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Location, Location
Hunt In: Spite of Wife's Complaints
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
On your ranch you probably could, but I bet you already know every deer on there.
They probably all have names, Am I right??
Im not talking about named deer. I’m talking about deer. General run of the mill deer. I could probably do it with does too, but I’m less confident since I look at bucks harder.

I could do it with my neighbors deer vs yours.

And I don't really name deer anything other than descriptors. "Mini" was the Mini Multipointed deer because we had a Multipointed deer.

<---- deer is called Sawfish by some of the guides... I call him "the deer with the drops" or "the droptine buck at 8South".

Last edited by Encinal; 05-08-2018 at 03:53 PM.
Encinal is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 03:42 PM   #37
Mexico
Pope & Young
 
Mexico's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Clear Lake Tx
Hunt In: Old Mexico, Centerville Tx
Default

I'll have to agree with Encinal even though I think he's a punk for having all those big deer . There is no doubt I can distinguish a native old Mexico or deep South Texas buck with any thing that is not native.... easily...
Mexico is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 03:52 PM   #38
Big Mike M
Eight Point
 
Big Mike M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Houston
Hunt In: Duval County west of Freer
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Im not talking about named deer. I’m talking about deer. General run of the mill deer. I could probably do it with does too, but I’m less confident since I look at bucks harder.

I could do it with my neighbors deer vs yours.
South Texas deer have a different look than any other deer in the world. I've hunted S. Texas for 26 years and agree with you on telling the difference. It's easy when you have looked at that many pure native S. Texas deer for so long.
Big Mike M is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 04:09 PM   #39
Encinal
Pope & Young
 
Encinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Location, Location
Hunt In: Spite of Wife's Complaints
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Mike M View Post
South Texas deer have a different look than any other deer in the world. I've hunted S. Texas for 26 years and agree with you on telling the difference. It's easy when you have looked at that many pure native S. Texas deer for so long.
It's not just that... if you add in antlers... and when ranches were big enough, you used to be able to tell what ranch big deer came from quite a bit of the time.
Encinal is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 06:11 PM   #40
lovemylegacy
Pope & Young
 
lovemylegacy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mauriceville
Hunt In: SETx,La,Il,Ks,Mo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesl View Post
We don't know about the doe we shoot. Not arguing that. I'm just saying that in our situation, we are above carrying capacity by choice. We provide all the supplemental feed the deer can consume. We have to remove deer from the herd. We take a very small percentage of trophies because we would rather let them live longer/breed, even though according to the biologists on here, there is absolutely no benefits to doing so. We try to determine the mature bucks that to us, are undesirable, and cull them out of the herd, which again has absolutely no benefit genetically speaking. To me, it's more about removing mature dominate bucks that we don't want bullying young bucks and eating supplemental feed. Whether it helps genetics, is a non issue.
I can tell you one thing, every one of those bucks pictured look like they are mature.
lovemylegacy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 06:15 PM   #41
lovemylegacy
Pope & Young
 
lovemylegacy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mauriceville
Hunt In: SETx,La,Il,Ks,Mo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WItoTX View Post
A doe contributes 50% of the genetics. No more, no less. To assert a fawn will receive more than 50% of its genetics from any one parent isn't true. However, mom will have a greater influence on the health of the fawn, as the fawn lives with her for the first year.

True culling is the removal of mouths to feed on the land so that way each animal gets adequate food, water, and shelter. With those three things, even small bucks will become big fast. How a person determines which deer are "culls" is up to the individual landowner though.
I hear ya, but some would argue that 50%. I will not. I have read, some believe the doe is responsible for up to 80% of the genetics....how they know this? I do not know
lovemylegacy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 07:12 PM   #42
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Im not talking about named deer. I’m talking about deer. General run of the mill deer. I could probably do it with does too, but I’m less confident since I look at bucks harder.

I could do it with my neighbors deer vs yours.

And I don't really name deer anything other than descriptors. "Mini" was the Mini Multipointed deer because we had a Multipointed deer.

<---- deer is called Sawfish by some of the guides... I call him "the deer with the drops" or "the droptine buck at 8South".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
I'll have to agree with Encinal even though I think he's a punk for having all those big deer . There is no doubt I can distinguish a native old Mexico or deep South Texas buck with any thing that is not native.... easily...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Mike M View Post
South Texas deer have a different look than any other deer in the world. I've hunted S. Texas for 26 years and agree with you on telling the difference. It's easy when you have looked at that many pure native S. Texas deer for so long.
Well, I need to send my Texas hunting buddies with ya'll for a deer identification seminar.
I have to put a BIG, BRIGHT tag on them or they would get shot, no doubt.
At 7/8ths or 15/16ths pure Texas it's a challenge for the average hunter.
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 07:30 PM   #43
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesl View Post
Would you leave any of these deer pictured below running around on your property? I am thinking you would say no, that you would kill (cull) them from the herd. And there would be several reasons for this. Taking a mouth out of the equation, mature bucks dispersing younger bucks to new areas and undesirable genetics. If a buck is dead prior to the rut, then he will not breed that year and the years after. Yes he has bred since he was 1.5 yrs old and has made a few bucks and does with his genetic characteristics. But you can't say that by killing true inferior bucks, you don't help the herd a little bit.
If all those deer were 4 1/2 or older I would absolutely take them out of the herd. For the reasons you listed and also to keep them from possibly injuring a deer with real potential.
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 08:40 PM   #44
Encinal
Pope & Young
 
Encinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Location, Location
Hunt In: Spite of Wife's Complaints
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Well, I need to send my Texas hunting buddies with ya'll for a deer identification seminar.
I have to put a BIG, BRIGHT tag on them or they would get shot, no doubt.
At 7/8ths or 15/16ths pure Texas it's a challenge for the average hunter.
It’s a challenge for the average hunter to tell a 120 from a 150.

If you know what you are looking for, it’s plain as day.
Encinal is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 09:16 PM   #45
MQ32Shooter
Pope & Young
 
MQ32Shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garland, Texas
Hunt In: Cisco, Texas
Default

I really envy you guys that have the ability to full deer. The state of Texas tells me what bucks I can and can’t cull based solely on width.
MQ32Shooter is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 09:28 PM   #46
Encinal
Pope & Young
 
Encinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Location, Location
Hunt In: Spite of Wife's Complaints
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MQ32Shooter View Post
I really envy you guys that have the ability to full deer. The state of Texas tells me what bucks I can and can’t cull based solely on width.
Those antler restrictions have done more for the age structure of the deer herd than anything since the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
Encinal is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 10:58 PM   #47
bukkskin
Eight Point
 
bukkskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pipe Creek/Helotes
Hunt In: Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
It’s a challenge for the average hunter to tell a 120 from a 150.

If you know what you are looking for, it’s plain as day.
Not with my deer it isn't plain as day. Not sure what released breeder deer you guys are used to seeing all the time? Maybe some with a lot of Northern blood?? A bunch of nontypicals?
My deer are gray, almost black, especially in the fall and winter. Same color as our so called native South Texas and Mexico deer.
I have hunted Mexico for a Looooong time, seen a gazillion deer. We have release deer down there too. The only way we can tell them from the "wild" deer is the tag.
Most of the guys I hunt with are in their 60's and 70's and have been hunting down South their whole lives.
They will tell you that they "saw a hell of a young buck that had a tag in it's ear".
Or, they will describe a big deer to me and I will ask them if it had a "whatever color" tag.
If they didn't see it, curiosity will usually get the best of them and they will go back and look for it. Usually, if the deer shows back up, Boom!! There it is.

Not once has one mentioned that the deer looked different or out of place.

Edit: Oh, and I guess my Texas boys are better than average hunters. They can at least age and score pretty well.
I just think they would have a hard time telling a deers bloodline by looking at it's body.

Last edited by bukkskin; 05-08-2018 at 11:15 PM.
bukkskin is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-08-2018, 11:32 PM   #48
Peyton
Pope & Young
 
Peyton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corsicana
Hunt In: Carrizo Springs
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Not with my deer it isn't plain as day. Not sure what released breeder deer you guys are used to seeing all the time? Maybe some with a lot of Northern blood?? A bunch of nontypicals?
My deer are gray, almost black, especially in the fall and winter. Same color as our so called native South Texas and Mexico deer.
I have hunted Mexico for a Looooong time, seen a gazillion deer. We have release deer down there too. The only way we can tell them from the "wild" deer is the tag.
Most of the guys I hunt with are in their 60's and 70's and have been hunting down South their whole lives.
They will tell you that they "saw a hell of a young buck that had a tag in it's ear".
Or, they will describe a big deer to me and I will ask them if it had a "whatever color" tag.
If they didn't see it, curiosity will usually get the best of them and they will go back and look for it. Usually, if the deer shows back up, Boom!! There it is.

Not once has one mentioned that the deer looked different or out of place.

Edit: Oh, and I guess my Texas boys are better than average hunters. They can at least age and score pretty well.
I just think they would have a hard time telling a deers bloodline by looking at it's body.


Please keep your test tube deer tagged. They need to wear earrings so we can tell them apart!
Peyton is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-09-2018, 05:59 AM   #49
Jamesl
Ten Point
 
Jamesl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: League City
Hunt In: Texas, Colorado, New Mexico
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
If all those deer were 4 1/2 or older I would absolutely take them out of the herd. For the reasons you listed and also to keep them from possibly injuring a deer with real potential.
The one on the skinning rack was 3.5 or 4.5. The rest were 4.5 to 8.5 based on totally inaccurate tooth wear aging. I thought we were doing good by removing them from the herd, but apparently we were just shooting bucks that would have no impact on the herd whether they lived or died. Heck we shouldn't even call them culls, they are bucks.
Jamesl is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-09-2018, 06:04 AM   #50
Encinal
Pope & Young
 
Encinal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Location, Location
Hunt In: Spite of Wife's Complaints
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Not with my deer it isn't plain as day. Not sure what released breeder deer you guys are used to seeing all the time? Maybe some with a lot of Northern blood?? A bunch of nontypicals?
My deer are gray, almost black, especially in the fall and winter. Same color as our so called native South Texas and Mexico deer.
I have hunted Mexico for a Looooong time, seen a gazillion deer. We have release deer down there too. The only way we can tell them from the "wild" deer is the tag.
Most of the guys I hunt with are in their 60's and 70's and have been hunting down South their whole lives.
They will tell you that they "saw a hell of a young buck that had a tag in it's ear".
Or, they will describe a big deer to me and I will ask them if it had a "whatever color" tag.
If they didn't see it, curiosity will usually get the best of them and they will go back and look for it. Usually, if the deer shows back up, Boom!! There it is.

Not once has one mentioned that the deer looked different or out of place.

Edit: Oh, and I guess my Texas boys are better than average hunters. They can at least age and score pretty well.
I just think they would have a hard time telling a deers bloodline by looking at it's body.
Point is, they aren’t the same. I don’t share Other folks’ hostility towards the existence or the practice of breeding. My animus is exclusively reserved for those folks who irresponsibly move deer.

Trying to put them in a category they don’t deserve to share with other deer is just annoyingly dishonest, and I know you’ve worded your posts just to for that purpose since you consider us “haters” to stir the pot. No sweat. What I’m not sure of though is if you actually are observant enough of your own animals to be able to tell (and being intentionally misleading) or just not that observant.

Last edited by Encinal; 05-09-2018 at 06:23 AM.
Encinal is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright 1999-2012, TexasBowhunter.com