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Old 06-06-2018, 08:15 AM   #1
J Sweet
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Something I wrote to my wife to try and explain peoples mentality when it comes to political discourse. Link to the essay is at the bottom. I think its laid out splendidly in the link. Pathos/Logos; Subjective/Objective

Both social conservatives and egalitarian liberals (egalitarians almost by definition) have a more subjective mind. They “feel” therefore it must be true and not just for them but also for you. Libertarians and Classical Liberals have a more objective mind. Something is not true because you “feel” it is. It’s a truism because it is based in logic and proven scientific or mathematical fact.

I would further argue that egalitarian liberals have an even more subjective mind as social conservatives at least for the most part are objectively minded when it comes to economic belief systems. It’s important to keep in mind I am talking about humans in the aggregate and obviously not those biased politically mainly elected and appointed politicians. For either the subjective or objective minded individuals there is a search for a truth. For politicians at large there is not a search for truth but rather one of political expedience.

Here is a brief article that I think sums up the two minds perfectly. We all have both minds but in most one is more prevalent than the other. This helps my very objective mind to rationalize the thoughts of others. The proverbial "bleeding heart".

http://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2009/0...nd-subjective/
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:24 AM   #2
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Disclaimer*** In no way am I saying one is the correct way of thinking over the other.
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:31 AM   #3
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Deep subject..............
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:05 AM   #4
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I have to disagree a bit with one of the author's examples. Gravity as objective truth is a good one (a dropped brick will smash your foot whether you believe in gravity or not.) Objective morality is another matter. He says not murdering people and treating others with kindness is an objective truth - my question would be "according to who?" It may be what most people think, but is truth determined by a show of hands? Another view is the only way there is objective morality - "Truth with a capital T" is if it comes from God. (some would argue that "natural law" serves the same purpose) If that is the case, a certain definition of morality is true whether you believe it or not. But then, belief in God can be viewed as subjective. (?!)
I think you are correct that the farther left you go, the more subjective the arguments are. I have always thought the main difference between left and right is the difference in their understanding of human nature. Those on the left tend to believe in some version of Rousseau's "Perfectibility of Man". If you just get enogh progressive experts running things, humans will someday be marching into the sunny uplands of utopia. Those on the right are most likely to believe that human nature does not evolve - the crooked timber we are all made of cannot be permanently straightened. (fallen, in religious parlance)

Last edited by jerp; 06-06-2018 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:23 AM   #5
J Sweet
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I have to disagree a bit with one of the author's examples. Gravity as objective truth is a good one (a dropped brick will smash your foot whether you believe in gravity or not.) Objective morality is another matter. He says not murdering people and treating others with kindness is an objective truth - my question would be "according to who?" It may be what most people think, but is truth determined by a show of hands? Another view is the only way there is objective morality - "Truth with a capital T" is if it comes from God. (some would argue that "natural law" serves the same purpose) If that is the case, a certain definition of morality is true whether you believe it or not. But then, belief in God can be viewed as subjective. (?!)
I think you are correct that the farther left you go, the more subjective the arguments are. I have always thought the main difference between left and right is the difference in their understanding of human nature. Those on the left tend to believe in some version of Rousseau's "Perfectibility of Man". If you just get enogh progressive experts running things, humans will someday be marching into the sunny uplands of utopia. Those on the right are most likely to believe that human nature does not evolve - the crooked timber we are all made of cannot be permanently straightened. (fallen, in religious parlance)
Good points. Can there even be a thing as "objective morality"? Is it not an oxy moron? Morality is purely subjective I would think.

Last edited by J Sweet; 06-06-2018 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:40 AM   #6
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I think you're all crazy!
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:56 AM   #7
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I think you are absolutely nuts for trying to explain that to a woman!
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:57 AM   #8
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Good points. Can there even be a thing as "objective morality"? Is it not an oxy moron? Morality is purely subjective I would think.


Lordy I was knee deep into the beginnings of a manifesto but this one is easier to respond to. This objective morality...no wait, I can already tell I’m heading back in that direction...anyway, objective morality is one of the cornerstone points where idealogies between the progressive left and conservative right begins. The right has historically taken the position that certain social and even foreign policy issues are based in an objective morality as defined by Christianity. The word of God is infallible, therefore the morality defined by God is and should be the basis from which objectivity is defined. Subsequently laws and policies should be developed from this moral objectivity as it is rooted in the infallible.

However, as much as we might all want to say yeehaw to that and the validity of the founding fathers’ vision for this country, you also have to accept the separation of church and state. Well, you do if you want to be an American. Once that separation is made, moral objectivity becomes weakened, because the objectivity defined by Christianity isn’t supposed to be considered in laws or policies. This gives the left the opportunity to redefine truth and morality not in terms of objectivity but instead in relativity, which in my opinion is what has caused the slide towards some fanatical activism and victimism (yes I just made that word up). Define how you are marginalized, define your oppressor, and wage war without considering whether your victimization is even valid.

Which leads me to my next item...control.

If you say a lie enough times it becomes the truth. It is easier to fool someone than to convince them they’ve been fooled. The best truck the devil ever played was to convince the world he doesn’t exist. All these sayings reflect the same thing - there is a strong desire to take control of objective truth, to twist it, and to repackage the subjective version as reality. No better example of this than in politics, where what is “right” or “moral” has no meaning except for how it defines who has power. The authoritarian branches of both the left and right aren’t concerned whatsoever with the objective truth or morality behind their positions, they pursue the fight only because it leads to control of power and the opportunity to frame their subjective version of truth as the objective reality.

Objectivity falls prey to those who desire to control it, and corruption sets in. Corruption is often thought of in terms of politics, but the root of corruption lies within the desire to twist objective truth into something that can be controlled and manipulated. People who step outside of that framework are labeled dissenters, are demonized, and subsequently shunned as heretics of the narrative.

The last bastion of freedom is to be an educated, free, and independent thinker. To not buy in to one group or another solely for the comfort or protection groupthink provides, but to be willing to face the harshness of the world for what it is and to understand when to swim upstream and when to hide in the current as you slip between the sharks. True power lies not in the control of objective truth but in understanding it, identifying who is trying to twist it, and then using the failure of their camouflage to exploit the situation.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:27 AM   #9
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Lordy I was knee deep into the beginnings of a manifesto but this one is easier to respond to. This objective morality...no wait, I can already tell I’m heading back in that direction...anyway, objective morality is one of the cornerstone points where idealogies between the progressive left and conservative right begins. The right has historically taken the position that certain social and even foreign policy issues are based in an objective morality as defined by Christianity. The word of God is infallible, therefore the morality defined by God is and should be the basis from which objectivity is defined. Subsequently laws and policies should be developed from this moral objectivity as it is rooted in the infallible.

However, as much as we might all want to say yeehaw to that and the validity of the founding fathers’ vision for this country, you also have to accept the separation of church and state. Well, you do if you want to be an American. Once that separation is made, moral objectivity becomes weakened, because the objectivity defined by Christianity isn’t supposed to be considered in laws or policies. This gives the left the opportunity to redefine truth and morality not in terms of objectivity but instead in relativity, which in my opinion is what has caused the slide towards some fanatical activism and victimism (yes I just made that word up). Define how you are marginalized, define your oppressor, and wage war without considering whether your victimization is even valid.

Which leads me to my next item...control.

If you say a lie enough times it becomes the truth. It is easier to fool someone than to convince them they’ve been fooled. The best truck the devil ever played was to convince the world he doesn’t exist. All these sayings reflect the same thing - there is a strong desire to take control of objective truth, to twist it, and to repackage the subjective version as reality. No better example of this than in politics, where what is “right” or “moral” has no meaning except for how it defines who has power. The authoritarian branches of both the left and right aren’t concerned whatsoever with the objective truth or morality behind their positions, they pursue the fight only because it leads to control of power and the opportunity to frame their subjective version of truth as the objective reality.

Objectivity falls prey to those who desire to control it, and corruption sets in. Corruption is often thought of in terms of politics, but the root of corruption lies within the desire to twist objective truth into something that can be controlled and manipulated. People who step outside of that framework are labeled dissenters, are demonized, and subsequently shunned as heretics of the narrative.

The last bastion of freedom is to be an educated, free, and independent thinker. To not buy in to one group or another solely for the comfort or protection groupthink provides, but to be willing to face the harshness of the world for what it is and to understand when to swim upstream and when to hide in the current as you slip between the sharks. True power lies not in the control of objective truth but in understanding it, identifying who is trying to twist it, and then using the failure of their camouflage to exploit the situation.
All solid points. What do you mean by exploit the situation? I assume you mean "out" those who suppress free thought and civil liberties. Ill let you explain it though since its your words lol.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:32 AM   #10
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The founders didn't envision a "separation of church and state". They just didn't want the state to mandate participation in a particular church that the government was in charge of (like the Church of England). They envisioned free exercise of religion and mostly advocated the notion that the government and society would be best served by leaders who served God and upheld biblical principles. That's not "separation of church and state". It's placing church above state, rather than placing state above church.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:32 AM   #11
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I just cant get past that you are sending this to a woman. Here is a very recent experience with an unnamed woman....

"Steve can you come look at my ceiling fan? Its over heating and might catch fire. It almost blistered my hand when I was turning it off". Oh crap that cant be good so i hurry to check it out. Cool as a cucumber. "Well it wasnt when ii touched it"! ii turn it back on and let it run. Cool as can be so i asked her to show me where it was hot. Are you ready for this???? The light bulb....
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:34 AM   #12
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All solid points. What do you mean by exploit the situation? I assume you mean "out" those who suppress free thought and civil liberties. Ill let you explain it though since its your words lol.

Really, exploit can be interpreted differently for each situation. In some cases it might be to go on offense, to press forward aggressively towards a result. In others it might be preparing defensive measures to protect against some kind of imposition or allegation. It good ol country boy language, “Identify who the bull****ter is and make sure they don’t get one over on you”. In the corporate world, it is particularly useful in understanding what is actually right and moral and how that interacts or conflicts with the rules of the game. This can advance your career, or protect it from destruction, but for me it is most meaningful in that I never lose sight of who I am or what I believe regardless of the game I am forced to or have chosen to play.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:43 AM   #13
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The founders didn't envision a "separation of church and state". They just didn't want the state to mandate participation in a particular church that the government was in charge of (like the Church of England). They envisioned free exercise of religion and mostly advocated the notion that the government and society would be best served by leaders who served God and upheld biblical principles. That's not "separation of church and state". It's placing church above state, rather than placing state above church.


Really good point and clarification. However, “free exercise therof” opens the door wide to conflicting religious beliefs and therefore an effective separation even if not an intended legislative one
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:48 AM   #14
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Really good point and clarification. However, “free exercise therof” opens the door wide to conflicting religious beliefs and therefore an effective separation even if not an intended legislative one
Yep. I think they said "religion" when they were only talking about "Christianity", and that created some problems.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:49 AM   #15
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Yep. I think they said "religion" when they were only talking about "Christianity", and that created some problems.

I bet if we we able to bring them forward to the present they would be face palming themselves on that one and probably a few others for sure!
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:52 AM   #16
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I just cant get past that you are sending this to a woman. Here is a very recent experience with an unnamed woman....

"Steve can you come look at my ceiling fan? Its over heating and might catch fire. It almost blistered my hand when I was turning it off". Oh crap that cant be good so i hurry to check it out. Cool as a cucumber. "Well it wasnt when ii touched it"! ii turn it back on and let it run. Cool as can be so i asked her to show me where it was hot. Are you ready for this???? The light bulb....
Haha. My wife is pregnant now so she is pulling a lot of that kind of stuff right now. "baby brain" I believe it is called.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:54 AM   #17
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I bet if we we able to bring them forward to the present they would be face palming themselves on that one and probably a few others for sure!
Yes sir.
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Old 06-06-2018, 01:16 PM   #18
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I just cant get past that you are sending this to a woman. Here is a very recent experience with an unnamed woman....

"Steve can you come look at my ceiling fan? Its over heating and might catch fire. It almost blistered my hand when I was turning it off". Oh crap that cant be good so i hurry to check it out. Cool as a cucumber. "Well it wasnt when ii touched it"! ii turn it back on and let it run. Cool as can be so i asked her to show me where it was hot. Are you ready for this???? The light bulb....
Steve, I thought this story was really going to get interesting from here.
I guess I read too many other types of "forums" as a youngster . But the light bulb answer is pretty funny.
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Old 06-06-2018, 09:08 PM   #19
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Good read. Thanks for posting.
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