Reply
Go Back   TexasBowhunter.com Community Discussion Forums > Topics > Equipment and Tuning
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-01-2018, 09:39 PM   #1
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default for people that spine there arrows

https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtVqxLy9AZcGhTUuQBiHAB9m9LSF

not complete more testing is going on.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-04-2018, 01:48 PM   #2
Briar Friar
Ten Point
 
Briar Friar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Hunt In: San Gabriel, Colorado and Rio Grande watersheds
Default

Good read. Good info. I especially like your clarifications/corrections/rectifications on common conversive abuse of logic when considering dynamic vs static and when adding weight.
Briar Friar is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-05-2018, 10:32 AM   #3
Briar Friar
Ten Point
 
Briar Friar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Hunt In: San Gabriel, Colorado and Rio Grande watersheds
Default

Just got done reading entire paper. Absolute junk...bowhunters never lie.
Briar Friar is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-05-2018, 01:50 PM   #4
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briar Friar View Post
Just got done reading entire paper. Absolute junk...bowhunters never lie.
You liked that did you haha.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-05-2018, 01:51 PM   #5
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briar Friar View Post
Good read. Good info. I especially like your clarifications/corrections/rectifications on common conversive abuse of logic when considering dynamic vs static and when adding weight.
Good. I thought my paper was to technical
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-06-2018, 08:49 AM   #6
Briar Friar
Ten Point
 
Briar Friar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Hunt In: San Gabriel, Colorado and Rio Grande watersheds
Default

This paper inspired me to research FLO. I just bought a golf FLO laser to spine arrows. Golf mechanix makes one but purchased off golfworks.com. All in all $63ish...product and shipping. I could make one but its really not worth my time and effort for what I could purchase a finished product for online.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PrVkh1dig9o
I like this demonstration video the best. However golfing...still applicable.
Briar Friar is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-06-2018, 08:52 AM   #7
Briar Friar
Ten Point
 
Briar Friar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Hunt In: San Gabriel, Colorado and Rio Grande watersheds
Default

https://www.golfworks.com/golf-mecha...CABEgJAa_D_BwE
Briar Friar is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-06-2018, 10:37 AM   #8
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

I have lots of thoughts about FLO. I got lots of testing to do with this before I have a complete conclusion.

Look up tutalman FLO testing. Lost of great info.

Now for a golf club this is a great tester. But arrows are not the same. Again I need more testing
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-06-2018, 10:38 AM   #9
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briar Friar View Post
To heavy 205g. Is 3164gr.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-09-2018, 03:26 PM   #10
Rat
Ten Point
 
Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bertram
Default

When we say "Add weight to the front to weaken the spine." isn't it implied that we are talking about the dynamic spine (reaction)? Does anyone really believe that we are weakening the static spine of the arrow just by adding tip weight?

As for the other variables you covered, I don't care.

I want the arrows to hit the same spot, we all do right? That's what arrow tuning is for, to get them all to hit the same spot. Does it really matter if it's due to runout, wall thickness variances or a stiff spot? Not to me, as long as they all hit the same spot when I am done.

To be sure there will be some arrows that will not tune, for whatever reason, and I just let the kids shoot those.

On top of that you have tolerance stacking of the other components; insert, tip, nock bushing and nock and even the fletching. All of these contribute to the dynamic reaction of the arrow and where it is "pointing" when it leaves the string.

So how do we look at the arrow in total, once it's built, with all the components?

Obviously I am playing devil's advocate here enewman (except for the first paragraph, I really want to know that); you have put together a fine paper on the less thought of aspects of arrow building and selection.

I really just want to see where the conversation goes when I ask:
"What do we do about it and how do we tune for it?"

'It' being any of the afore mentioned variables (or any combination thereof) in your paper.
Rat is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-09-2018, 06:18 PM   #11
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
When we say "Add weight to the front to weaken the spine." isn't it implied that we are talking about the dynamic spine (reaction)? Does anyone really believe that we are weakening the static spine of the arrow just by adding tip weight?

As for the other variables you covered, I don't care.

I want the arrows to hit the same spot, we all do right? That's what arrow tuning is for, to get them all to hit the same spot. Does it really matter if it's due to runout, wall thickness variances or a stiff spot? Not to me, as long as they all hit the same spot when I am done.

To be sure there will be some arrows that will not tune, for whatever reason, and I just let the kids shoot those.

On top of that you have tolerance stacking of the other components; insert, tip, nock bushing and nock and even the fletching. All of these contribute to the dynamic reaction of the arrow and where it is "pointing" when it leaves the string.

So how do we look at the arrow in total, once it's built, with all the components?

Obviously I am playing devil's advocate here enewman (except for the first paragraph, I really want to know that); you have put together a fine paper on the less thought of aspects of arrow building and selection.

I really just want to see where the conversation goes when I ask:
"What do we do about it and how do we tune for it?"

'It' being any of the afore mentioned variables (or any combination thereof) in your paper.
Those papers are 4,5, and 6 of a set of 13. Itís how to build you a efoc and uefoc arrows. My opinion to match arrows is important. Understanding arrows is also important. That was the reason I put them in the middle of the 13 write ups.

I realize itís a lot. But for me and some others this information is what they want. For others not at all. My goal was in the end to have the best set up possible. But I know itís a low percentage that will even look but thatís ok.

Here is a link for the first 6. I have the others wrote but I need pictures. I just have not had the time to do them.

https://dangercloseoutdoors.com/additional-education
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-09-2018, 06:22 PM   #12
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Oh forgot. Your first paragraph. Yes. It’s an extreamly amount of archers that believe that it weakens the spine. Same as they think cutting them changes the static spine.

It’s horible how bad the archery world has failed to teach correctly. I don’t know if it was a misunderstanding years ago and know one realizes it or don’t care.

Same as momentum. The archery world stik teaches k.e. Until we start getting close to that 800 fps and trama matters ke never will. But yet that is what is still taught. Sad.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-10-2018, 08:38 AM   #13
Briar Friar
Ten Point
 
Briar Friar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Hunt In: San Gabriel, Colorado and Rio Grande watersheds
Default

I got the laser yesterday. (My phone is on the fritz otherwise Id have pics... Maybe later from the ipad). It was a heavy bugger...3200ish grains. I removed the mounting coupler...which weighed around 2400ish grains. I fashioned a beer bottle cap as a butt plate for holding the battery. I drilled a hole in the butt cap and inserted an 1" 8-32 machine screw...threaded a nut on backside to hold it and inserted the screw into an aluminum insert. I can change insert size for different diameter shafts and inserts. I electrical taped the whole laser rig for good stability measure. Final laser product ended up at 1078 grains.

I inserted the static end of the arrows shafts into some pipe insulation foam and sandwiched the heck out of it in a vice.

Viola!... A FLO rig was born.

I FLOed two float (bathtub) spined shafts and one was dead on FLO with float indexing and the other was off between FLO and float indexing by 1/16-1/8".

Once I indexed the stiff plane with FLO I then turned the shaft 180degrees for good measure and variance...of the two shafts indexed the FLO plane stayed true at 180.

The FLO was easiest to distinguish at low tempo oscillations rather than at high tempo oscillations. At high tempo oscillations there was always a circular trace until the shaft came back toward center...6-8"... and was corrected by the stiff plane. Then the magic happened...or didnt.

Golf gurus call it "twanging" a club shaft. One important thing not mentioned in the video I posted that was mentioned in another Golf FLO video was that the twanging needs to be done perpendicular to the plane of the vice holding the static end of the shaft.

Last edited by Briar Friar; 04-10-2018 at 08:52 AM. Reason: MajicSpake
Briar Friar is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-10-2018, 10:23 AM   #14
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briar Friar View Post
I got the laser yesterday. (My phone is on the fritz otherwise Id have pics... Maybe later from the ipad). It was a heavy bugger...3200ish grains. I removed the mounting coupler...which weighed around 2400ish grains. I fashioned a beer bottle cap as a butt plate for holding the battery. I drilled a hole in the butt cap and inserted an 1" 8-32 machine screw...threaded a nut on backside to hold it and inserted the screw into an aluminum insert. I can change insert size for different diameter shafts and inserts. I electrical taped the whole laser rig for good stability measure. Final laser product ended up at 1078 grains.

I inserted the static end of the arrows shafts into some pipe insulation foam and sandwiched the heck out of it in a vice.

Viola!... A FLO rig was born.

I FLOed two float (bathtub) spined shafts and one was dead on FLO with float indexing and the other was off between FLO and float indexing by 1/16-1/8".

Once I indexed the stiff plane with FLO I then turned the shaft 180degrees for good measure and variance...of the two shafts indexed the FLO plane stayed true at 180.

The FLO was easiest to distinguish at low tempo oscillations rather than at high tempo oscillations. At high tempo oscillations there was always a circular trace until the shaft came back toward center...6-8"... and was corrected by the stiff plane. Then the magic happened...or didnt.

Golf gurus call it "twanging" a club shaft. One important thing not mentioned in the video I posted that was mentioned in another Golf FLO video was that the twanging needs to be done perpendicular to the plane of the vice holding the static end of the shaft.
Somewhere and I donít remember where. I think in the tutelman papers. He stated FLO finds a plain. But which one you donít know.

Itís been awhile Iíll have to dust off my FLO tester.

Iíve gone back and forth with this. Arrows are not swung like a golf club. So what we use as a tester for golf clubs may not work for arrows. I donít know. Two different reactions.

But Iíll get mine out and play with it. I share what I find with you. See what happens

Last edited by enewman; 04-10-2018 at 10:44 AM.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright 1999-2012, TexasBowhunter.com