Duty caliber question

[tvc184]

9mm vs .40 Cal vs .45 ACP... Cinder Block Test
watch this on youtube

I watched the video. Interesting but it seems to have no bearing when discussing duty ammo.

[CrookedArrow]

I keep hearing "bullet technoligy" enlighten me and I may still be in doubt of the 9mm. Then again I may change my mind. What duty ammo are we speaking of??

[Quackerbox]

I watched the video. Interesting but it seems to have no bearing when discussing duty ammo.

After a discussion on bullets penetrating phonebooks in my academy the revered firearms instructor said..............bad guys aint made of phonebooks

I suspect that applies here as well

[glen]

Crooked- years ago everyone was pushing a 147 grain pill out of a 4 inch 9mm. It was getting about 950 FPS- Bullets were not doing what they needed to do. Now the 124grain bullet is running 1150FPS out of same gun and bullets are very effective. I watched a lot of stuff get shot with 124 9mm and a .40. Both shooting Gold Dot. I’ll take the 9mm about 60% of the time over the 40. I’ll would say the 40 does do better on car doors but the 9mm does better in soft tissue

[CrookedArrow]

Crooked- years ago everyone was pushing a 147 grain pill out of a 4 inch 9mm. It was getting about 950 FPS- Bullets were not doing what they needed to do. Now the 124grain bullet is running 1150FPS out of same gun and bullets are very effective. I watched a lot of stuff get shot with 124 9mm and a .40. Both shooting Gold Dot. I’ll take the 9mm about 60% of the time over the 40. I’ll would say the 40 does do better on car doors but the 9mm does better in soft tissue

This is why I am not a big fan of the 9mm. True life shoot out with one of our officers. Fat POS survived and kept advancing towards Travland. Travland dam near lost his leg in that shoot out. Travland shot this dude 3 times center mass and one to the thigh.

Fat POS should have had a body bag ID on his toe. I had to watch over him in the hospital. We have used Speer Gold Dots for as long as we I can remember. We were using the 9mm for the women officer and recoil at the time.

http://www.pecos.net/news/arch2002/012202p.htm

The shootout involved three former Pecos residents in Odessa Friday afternoon and his estranged wife dead and Cpl. Greg Travland is listed in stable condition at Medical Center Hospital with a gunshot wound to the leg.

Estela Cadena Ramon, 36, was shot and killed by Joe Albert Ramon at her place of employment in downtown Odessa. Joe Ramon then wounded Travland in the leg, but the officer was able to shoot Ramon several times in the chest while being wounded in the leg by Ramon, according to the Odessa Police Department.

[glen]

Looked at article it it was 2002- I would almost be positive y’all were issued 147 grain pills. Everyone was. 124 grain is a different animal

[tvc184]

I keep hearing "bullet technoligy" enlighten me and I may still be in doubt of the 9mm. Then again I may change my mind. What duty ammo are we speaking of??

The most common duty ammos are by far (I think) the Federal HST and its family member (same company) the Speer Gold Dot. There are others like Winchester that make similar duty rounds.

It is not technology really but engeneering. All of the duty ammo companies go by the FBI recommendation or standard. You can like it or hate it or disagree with it but it is what it is. The FBI came to the conclusion that the bullet needed to travel a minimum of 12 inches deep and in order to have a fair chance of passing into a vital organ or artery. To counter that however they did not want the bullet you traveled more than 18 inches so as not to over penetrate and endanger someone else.

Before that standard came out bullet companies variously made a bowl with that would go as deep as possible or expand as much as possible with little regard to actual affect us. In the mid-1980s we carried the Winchester Silvertip bullet which expanded greatly but really did not have an effective penetration. You could get it to expand almost to the size of a quarter but would only go five or 6 inches deep. I believe that was the round Houston in the Miami FBI shootout with the two agents were killed. I believe that help prompt the change in bullets and absolutely caused the invention of the .40S&W round.

So the police duty ammo companies are now making all of their rounds to fall within that 12 inch to 18 inch gap. Most of the rounds basically fall right in the middle. It does not matter what you can potentially get out of a particular round. They might be able to engineer a .40 that will go 30 inches deep in ballistic gelatin. They might be able to engineer a .45 that will go through two or three people. The companies are not making the ammo to see how deep they can go or even how big they can expand however. They are making them to fall within that predetermined gap. It does not matter if you shoot a 9mm or .40 or .45, they were all penetrate the same and exoand almost identically.

If we were talking about a magnum hunting round then there might be a lot more debate however we are not. They companies in order to comply with the FBI recommendations are engineering these bullets to perform identically.

I have only check Federal and Speer but you can go on their website and look at their test. They would not just in bare gelatin. There are tests in the various rounds they make into gelatin after it has been fired through heavy clothing, two sheets of drywall, the pieces of car door gauged steel, auto windshields, marine plywood, etc., all to simulate real world obstacles and then into the gelatin. You can click on various rounds and compare the actual gelatin results as well as the recovered rounds. There is very little difference between any of the rounds after being fired through the obstacles and even through those obstacles the rounds almost always retain nearly 100% of their weight.

After those bullets are engineered to perform the same, the only real difference is number of rounds and recoil or speed back on target.

I doubt there is much new technology but companies simply being given a problem, using a known standard (desired penetration) and then designing bullets that met that standard. I am confident that if you told companies to design a .40 that would go 24 inches deep, they could deliver. If you asked them to engineer a .45 to expand over 1.25 inches, they could deliver that. That is not what they were asked to make however.

As far as shooting someone any number of times, like with shooting wild animals, shot location. Merely saying center mass is meaningless. I have seen people center punched with a .45 with an exit wound out the back. The guy recovered completely. The round slid right along side the heart and hit nothing vital. I saw another guy hit with a FMJ .380 that took a couple of steps and fell dead. I am guessing that you have seen likewise. In the case you mentioned the question should be, would another caliber from the same manufacturer that hit in the exact same entry point have rendered different results. I suspect the answer would be no.

Like Quackerbox said, he has been disappointed in .45 performance and I am fairly confident that has been after working many shootings, going to autopsies, etc. You will still have people reading this that are absolutely certain of the man stopping effectiveness of the .45.

I wouldn’t want to be hit by any of them but it is my belief that the way they are engineered by the companies to a very specific standard, the results would be virtually identical. The only difference then is the aforementioned capacity and speed back on target.

in my opinion.

[hopedale]

The most common duty ammos are by far (I think) the Federal HST and its family member (same company) the Speer Gold Dot. There are others like Winchester that make similar duty rounds.

It is not technology really but engeneering. All of the duty ammo companies go by the FBI recommendation or standard. You can like it or hate it or disagree with it but it is what it is. The FBI came to the conclusion that the bullet needed to travel a minimum of 12 inches deep and in order to have a fair chance of passing into a vital organ or artery. To counter that however they did not want the bullet you traveled more than 18 inches so as not to over penetrate and endanger someone else.

Before that standard came out bullet companies variously made a bowl with that would go as deep as possible or expand as much as possible with little regard to actual affect us. In the mid-1980s we carried the Winchester Silvertip bullet which expanded greatly but really did not have an effective penetration. You could get it to expand almost to the size of a quarter but would only go five or 6 inches deep. I believe that was the round Houston in the Miami FBI shootout with the two agents were killed. I believe that help prompt the change in bullets and absolutely caused the invention of the .40S&W round.

So the police duty ammo companies are now making all of their rounds to fall within that 12 inch to 18 inch gap. Most of the rounds basically fall right in the middle. It does not matter what you can potentially get out of a particular round. They might be able to engineer a .40 that will go 30 inches deep in ballistic gelatin. They might be able to engineer a .45 that will go through two or three people. The companies are not making the ammo to see how deep they can go or even how big they can expand however. They are making them to fall within that predetermined gap. It does not matter if you shoot a 9mm or .40 or .45, they were all penetrate the same and exoand almost identically.

If we were talking about a magnum hunting round then there might be a lot more debate however we are not. They companies in order to comply with the FBI recommendations are engineering these bullets to perform identically.

I have only check Federal and Speer but you can go on their website and look at their test. They would not just in bare gelatin. There are tests in the various rounds they make into gelatin after it has been fired through heavy clothing, two sheets of drywall, the pieces of car door gauged steel, auto windshields, marine plywood, etc., all to simulate real world obstacles and then into the gelatin. You can click on various rounds and compare the actual gelatin results as well as the recovered rounds. There is very little difference between any of the rounds after being fired through the obstacles and even through those obstacles the rounds almost always retain nearly 100% of their weight.

After those bullets are engineered to perform the same, the only real difference is number of rounds and recoil or speed back on target.

I doubt there is much new technology but companies simply being given a problem, using a known standard (desired penetration) and then designing bullets that met that standard. I am confident that if you told companies to design a .40 that would go 24 inches deep, they could deliver. If you asked them to engineer a .45 to expand over 1.25 inches, they could deliver that. That is not what they were asked to make however.

As far as shooting someone any number of times, like with shooting wild animals, shot location. Merely saying center mass is meaningless. I have seen people center punched with a .45 with an exit wound out the back. The guy recovered completely. The round slid right along side the heart and hit nothing vital. I saw another guy hit with a FMJ .380 that took a couple of steps and fell dead. I am guessing that you have seen likewise. In the case you mentioned the question should be, would another caliber from the same manufacturer that hit in the exact same entry point have rendered different results. I suspect the answer would be no.

Like Quackerbox said, he has been disappointed in .45 performance and I am fairly confident that has been after working many shootings, going to autopsies, etc. You will still have people reading this that are absolutely certain of the man stopping effectiveness of the .45.

I wouldn’t want to be hit by any of them but it is my belief that the way they are engineered by the companies to a very specific standard, the results would be virtually identical. The only difference then is the aforementioned capacity and speed back on target.

in my opinion.

Given what you've written, then I'm sold on the 9mm. More ammo, back on target after initial shot faster, and cheaper round to purchase.

[thegrouse]

I have seen so many people live after being shot with high calibers and many who have been killed with the small calibers. I have spoke at length with those that conduct autopsies all day on the subject. Whatever caliber you shoot best with I would recommend using.

[DTala]

any and all advances made in 9mm bullets/ammo were also made in 40 cal and 45 cal.

if you squat to pee the 9mm is your gun.

[kumathebear]

Age old debate and still, personal preference on what you are comfortable with and can make reasonably accurate "kill" shots on the range/qualifying?

Been out of the LEO profession for too many years but saw progression from 38/357 Wheel's to the others.... 9mm, 40 S&W, always the 45 and to this day the debate continues?!

I agree it's in the ammunition and capability of the shooter as to what is best? I have lost, will never forget, a couple of buddies/colleagues in the past due to several reasons including rounds that did not take the assailant down. Honestly, mostly attributed to poor placement and bad judgement to the threat. One can view so many different training videos on ballistics, gel/model distribution, so on so forth and decide what you believe. I have also seen, in the old days, PCP assailants that a great Canine officer took down when a half dozen of us could not control short of a well placed head shot?

There are so many variables that affect "deadly force" results that favor the LEO, IMO. Only round I guarantee will "take down" the perp is the 454 Cassule, but again...you have to hit them?? Not much help, but my old/outdated/not in harm's way choice is:

1. 45
2. 40 S&W
3. 9mm and ALL (double stack magazines...PERIOD!)

Whatever...God Bless all of you still serving...I could/would not be able to face what you all do each day with so much hate and disrespect for the badge!

[Quackerbox]

Like Quackerbox said, he has been disappointed in .45 performance and I am fairly confident that has been after working many shootings, going to autopsies, etc. You will still have people reading this that are absolutely certain of the man stopping effectiveness of the .45.

I wouldnÂ’t want to be hit by any of them but it is my belief that the way they are engineered by the companies to a very specific standard, the results would be virtually identical. The only difference then is the aforementioned capacity and speed back on target.

in my opinion.

You would be correct and I couldnt agree more on all accounts. Advances in technology have evened the playin field for the 'squat to pee' 9mm.

I am also a believer in what I guess you could call divine intervention. If the man upstairs says its your day, well its your day. For instance...

In recent history...bad guy takes 22 rounds about his body from two calibers that I know of. He lives.

Another guy gets 13 rounds of 9mm causing 17 different holes. Every major bone in arms and legs are broken (both sides). Even his pelvis is cracked. Deputy did not miss with a single round. While he goes poo in a bag today. He lived.

Girl takes 41 bygawd magnum to the temple at less than 6 feet. Her eyeball is hanging out of her head when she gets off the helicopter. Guess what....she lived.

My favorite: houstone member gets run over by car in a fight. Two weeks later he's crutching his way out of a shoot out. Shoot out is nearly over and he shakes his hands at the opposing group of shooters mocking them as they run. One last .380 round is fired from over 100 feet away. Round goes between two wrought iron fences, across the street and bounces off the asphalt. After the skip the FMJ 380 strikes houstone between the clavicle and shoulder blade. DRT. It was his day.

All that being said and whatever you decide to carry it. Train, train and train some more. A gun you cant run isnt worth much more than a crappy boomerang

[bboswell]

You would be correct and I couldnt agree more on all accounts. Advances in technology have evened the playin field for the 'squat to pee' 9mm.

I am also a believer in what I guess you could call divine intervention. If the man upstairs says its your day, well its your day. For instance...

In recent history...bad guy takes 22 rounds about his body from two calibers that I know of. He lives.

Another guy gets 13 rounds of 9mm causing 17 different holes. Every major bone in arms and legs are broken (both sides). Even his pelvis is cracked. Deputy did not miss with a single round. While he goes poo in a bag today. He lived.

Girl takes 41 bygawd magnum to the temple at less than 6 feet. Her eyeball is hanging out of her head when she gets off the helicopter. Guess what....she lived.

My favorite: houstone member gets run over by car in a fight. Two weeks later he's crutching his way out of a shoot out. Shoot out is nearly over and he shakes his hands at the opposing group of shooters mocking them as they run. One last .380 round is fired from over 100 feet away. Round goes between two wrought iron fences, across the street and bounces off the asphalt. After the skip the FMJ 380 strikes houstone between the clavicle and shoulder blade. DRT. It was his day.

All that being said and whatever you decide to carry it. Train, train and train some more. A gun you cant run isnt worth much more than a crappy boomerang

So all this brings us back to don’t fight with your hand gun, use it to get back to your long gun?

[Quackerbox]

So all this brings us back to don’t fight with your hand gun, use it to get back to your long gun?

Clint Smith would certainly agree[emoji16]

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[bboswell]

Clint Smith would certainly agree[emoji16]

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I’m interested in your 40 to 9 conversion. I have been die hard 40 but my son went 9 and I can say the extra capacity and speed of return to target is attractive.

But I don’t get to see all the real world results you do.