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Old 12-05-2017, 01:51 PM   #51
krod777
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X2 on 14"
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Old 12-05-2017, 07:58 PM   #52
gtsticker
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Originally Posted by TeamChampion12 View Post
I was told while in Sonora this weekend by a lontime wildlife biologist that when the AR was first introduced to to Texas that there were 3 restriction options that were proposed. 1) 13" inside spread 2) an unbranched antler 3)If the deer had at least 8pts then the 13" rule did not apply; but he said for some reason Texas chose not to add the 3rd option to the regs. I dont know how true that is, but the guy has been a wildlife biologist for 25+ years and a guide for the last 10+ so he really seemed to know his stuff. Anyone ever heard this or something similar?


No the third shoot factor was 6 points on one side. I worked in one of the first 6 counties it was introduced in!


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Old 12-05-2017, 08:24 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by tmurray View Post
I took a guy from Baton Rouge out hunting on a nice place in south Texas once. We had a 3 year old 10 point mid 140's deer come out about halfway through the evening hunt. I asked him, "If I wasn't here, would you shoot that deer?" His reply "Nope, I never woulda seen that deer, I woulda shot that 6 point an hour ago"
This got me good ha

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Old 12-05-2017, 08:36 PM   #54
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I think the reasoning is good But in most cases Hunters gota rely on there eyes at various ranges/lighting...GW uses a Ruler...and then a point is 1 " while not a point is 7/8"..Heck most people can't measure that close wirh Horns and Ruler in Hand....Just my 2C
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:55 PM   #55
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I’m hunting a AR county for the 1st time, deciding if a buck is 13+ is not easy by any means. I’ve had TC’S out since October when I got the OK to hunt and have 5 or 6 bucks that are mature and possible shooters. I also have 3 or 4 young bucks that are legal but I elected not to shoot them. 4 or 5 more that are mature and won’t make AR. I managed to shoot a 15” funky horned 7 pt. cull with no teeth. Since it’s a 1 buck county, I’m done but happy with the big cull. It would be nice to shoot one more of the mature culls but I can see why the law reads as it does. Landowners shot 2 3 yr. old bucks, a 18” 8 and a tall tined 10, they would have been really nice in a couple of years. We have been discussing age since my old cull outweighed their 2 by a good 35 pounds.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:33 PM   #56
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The biggest problem with ar is you are harvesting your best deer with the best genetics and the letting the poor genetics deer survive breed and pass on more and more poor genetics. Let's say I have 100 head of cattle and 1 stud bull that sires the best calves every year and 3 other bulls that sire inferior calves every year. I need to make hamburger to feed my family so I am going to kill my stud bull and let the 3 other inferior bulls keep producing inferior calves. The same thing is happening to deer with only the best deer being harvested. there needs to be a way to harvest the inferior cull bucks without using your only buck tag.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:52 PM   #57
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The biggest problem with ar is you are harvesting your best deer with the best genetics and the letting the poor genetics deer survive breed and pass on more and more poor genetics. Let's say I have 100 head of cattle and 1 stud bull that sires the best calves every year and 3 other bulls that sire inferior calves every year. I need to make hamburger to feed my family so I am going to kill my stud bull and let the 3 other inferior bulls keep producing inferior calves. The same thing is happening to deer with only the best deer being harvested. there needs to be a way to harvest the inferior cull bucks without using your only buck tag.
This
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:55 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by brokeno View Post
The biggest problem with ar is you are harvesting your best deer with the best genetics and the letting the poor genetics deer survive breed and pass on more and more poor genetics. Let's say I have 100 head of cattle and 1 stud bull that sires the best calves every year and 3 other bulls that sire inferior calves every year. I need to make hamburger to feed my family so I am going to kill my stud bull and let the 3 other inferior bulls keep producing inferior calves. The same thing is happening to deer with only the best deer being harvested. there needs to be a way to harvest the inferior cull bucks without using your only buck tag.
Exactly this!
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:22 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Traxx View Post
This


Quote:
Originally Posted by RutnBuk View Post
Exactly this!


Quote:
Originally Posted by brokeno View Post
The biggest problem with ar is you are harvesting your best deer with the best genetics and the letting the poor genetics deer survive breed and pass on more and more poor genetics. Let's say I have 100 head of cattle and 1 stud bull that sires the best calves every year and 3 other bulls that sire inferior calves every year. I need to make hamburger to feed my family so I am going to kill my stud bull and let the 3 other inferior bulls keep producing inferior calves. The same thing is happening to deer with only the best deer being harvested. there needs to be a way to harvest the inferior cull bucks without using your only buck tag.


The problem with this argument is that it has been shown time and time again that hunters can not change the genetic pool in low fence herds. The two things we can controls to a degree.... age and nutrition.


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Old 12-06-2017, 12:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by brokeno View Post
The biggest problem with ar is you are harvesting your best deer with the best genetics and the letting the poor genetics deer survive breed and pass on more and more poor genetics. Let's say I have 100 head of cattle and 1 stud bull that sires the best calves every year and 3 other bulls that sire inferior calves every year. I need to make hamburger to feed my family so I am going to kill my stud bull and let the 3 other inferior bulls keep producing inferior calves. The same thing is happening to deer with only the best deer being harvested. there needs to be a way to harvest the inferior cull bucks without using your only buck tag.
I know there are exceptions, I think I have one on my hunt county place right now, but I have a hard time believing that there are places covered up with <13" MATURE bucks. IMO it all comes down to the hunter and/or the lease rules, you have to get guys to shoot the mature (4.5+) bucks even if there are some 2-3yo's that are legal and bigger.

again, assuming a large percentage of mature bucks are >13" anyway, hunters need to see the benefit in killing a buck based on age and not score and not be scared/ashamed/embarrassed, whatever, to kill a 5.5yo 120" buck and let that 3.5yo 130" walk.
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:39 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by brokeno View Post
The biggest problem with ar is you are harvesting your best deer with the best genetics and the letting the poor genetics deer survive breed and pass on more and more poor genetics. Let's say I have 100 head of cattle and 1 stud bull that sires the best calves every year and 3 other bulls that sire inferior calves every year. I need to make hamburger to feed my family so I am going to kill my stud bull and let the 3 other inferior bulls keep producing inferior calves. The same thing is happening to deer with only the best deer being harvested. there needs to be a way to harvest the inferior cull bucks without using your only buck tag.
The females hold half the genetics so this doesn't really matter in a low fence environment.
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:47 PM   #62
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The females hold half the genetics so this doesn't really matter in a low fence environment.
so that leaves half with the buck too....I see his point, he just needs to figure out how to talk his buddies into the shooting one of the 3 inferior bulls instead of big stud bull.
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:53 PM   #63
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so that leaves half with the buck too....I see his point, he just needs to figure out how to talk his buddies into the shooting one of the 3 inferior bulls instead of big stud bull.
Yes, you also don't run a 50/50 bull to cow ratio in your pasture, its a controlled environment... like a high fence, low fence is a different animal, same rules do not apply.
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:59 PM   #64
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The problem with this argument is that it has been shown time and time again that hunters can not change the genetic pool in low fence herds. The two things we can controls to a degree.... age and nutrition.


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Okay time and time again. State your source.


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Old 12-06-2017, 01:10 PM   #65
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The problem with this argument is that it has been shown time and time again that hunters can not change the genetic pool in low fence herds. The two things we can controls to a degree.... age and nutrition.


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"can not" is a little harsh, I think "have very little effect" would be better. there are guys on this site that will say that they killed every spike they saw for XX years now see very few, or guys that targeted no brow tine bucks for XX years and have seen a dramatic difference in the number they currently see.

its possible to change it, not drastically, but over time subtle changes can be made.
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:15 PM   #66
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Okay time and time again. State your source.


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I guess QDMA has no clue about herd management practices...
https://www.qdma.com/cant-manage-deer-genetics/

Or this study referenced in deer and deer hunter where they had to switch to a captive herd to get any controlled results. Found that early yearling fawns can participate in breading (spreading possible “cull” genetics 2-3 consecutive years before being identified as a “cull”)
And quoted
- “Does it make sense to selectively harvest males for the purpose of improving herd genetics? Our results suggest that managers who attempt to alter herd genetics through selective harvest are, at the very least, fighting a Mt. Everest scale uphill battle.”
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/de...ective-harvest

And then everyone fails to ever provide any evidence that even highly controlled male populations can overcome the inclusion of unwanted genetics from the does (50% of the genetic makeup of every buck comes from the doe)

In a highly controlled environment, such as a farm, where both the doe and buck’s lineages are documented and selected.... you can definitely improve genetics quickly. With the vast range of genetic diversity, 50% of the genetic structure being uncontrollable (i.e. does), and the documented displacement rates and distances of young deer in their first year... we are fooling ourselves thinking that we are having a noticeable effect on the actual genetic makeup of the herd.

What is more likely the case is that hunters who are highly concerned with management practices are more likely to make improvements on food availability, buck/doe ratios, and overall age structures within the herd (all of which ARE in a manager’s control) which in Turn improves the overall antler quality of the bucks observed. These much larger contributions to herd health often get overlooked as the reason for improvement, and credit is unduly given to “cull” programs.


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Old 12-06-2017, 01:16 PM   #67
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I never said QDMA didn’t know their stuff just you


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Old 12-06-2017, 01:18 PM   #68
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I would argue that the inclusion of lineage controlled breeder bucks would have a MUCH faster, and longer lasting effect on the herd antler performance than cull selection.


In that case, you are injecting known dominant genetic performers into a gene pool rather than trying to remove a trait well engrained into the regions population.

Edit:
Or even more effectively, high quality bred does from the same lineages. In that scenario, you get 2 deer worth of improved genetics instead of 1. (And, does tend to live longer on average due to not having antler to help convince the hunter to shoot them)

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Old 12-06-2017, 01:21 PM   #69
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I never said QDMA didn’t know their stuff just you


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And yet you have provided absolutely ZERO references or facts to support your claim....


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Old 12-06-2017, 01:22 PM   #70
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I also didn’t make absolute statements


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Old 12-06-2017, 01:28 PM   #71
IkemanTX
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I also didn’t make absolute statements


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Would this statement better please you...

It has been shown time and time again that selective harvest provides VERY LITTLE, if any, long term controllable results in a low fence environment. Age structure, food availability, and buck/doe ratios are management goals that are much more effective in antler class improvement.

Although I would argue the brow tine results as a change in nutrition availability during brow time development over the years. (i.e. protein/corn supplements, food plots, agriculture practice changes etc..)


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Old 12-06-2017, 01:29 PM   #72
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The problem with this argument is that it has been shown time and time again that hunters can not change the genetic pool in low fence herds. The two things we can controls to a degree.... age and nutrition.


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This is spot on. Genetic drift and random selection of genes in a low fence population are factors that will overwhelm any effects of "genetic selection" through hunter harvests.............
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:32 PM   #73
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Not really, go ahead and state your sources while you’re at it. Try again and lighten up Frances


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Old 12-06-2017, 02:31 PM   #74
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You may think your having an effect on your low fence deer but I can guarantee you the spotlighting road hunters that shoot it if its brown are thick around Dawson and are negating your efforts 100 fold...
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:46 PM   #75
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The biggest problem with ar is you are harvesting your best deer with the best genetics and the letting the poor genetics deer survive breed and pass on more and more poor genetics. Let's say I have 100 head of cattle and 1 stud bull that sires the best calves every year and 3 other bulls that sire inferior calves every year. I need to make hamburger to feed my family so I am going to kill my stud bull and let the 3 other inferior bulls keep producing inferior calves. The same thing is happening to deer with only the best deer being harvested. there needs to be a way to harvest the inferior cull bucks without using your only buck tag.
Ever heard of MLD? Hell, buy your wife/son/daughter/coworker a hunting license and go kill all them "culls". Where there's a will, there's a way. Come on man!!!
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:40 AM   #76
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This is spot on. Genetic drift and random selection of genes in a low fence population are factors that will overwhelm any effects of "genetic selection" through hunter harvests.............
bingo.
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