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Old 06-05-2017, 09:20 AM   #1
T_Sebastian
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Default Nikon Spot-On app

Ive had this rifle for about a year now. Ive been wanting to get into the long range game for a while, but just recently got on a lease where it may be somewhat possible. It used to wear a Millett scope with the Mil-Dot reticle, but since I have had such great luck with Nikon scopes on my other rifles, and since I wanted to find a scope to look better with the rest of the stainless on this gun, I changed it out for this one. Its a Nikon Prostaff 5 BDC.

Ive actually had this rifle out to 600 in the past, but it took me a few shots to get the holdover correct (no spotter). Id rather use the old Kentucky windage than fiddle with the turrets anyway.

Got this one zeroed in at 100 yards, and went straight out to 500 (485 to be exact). Opened the Spot-On app on my phone, punched in all my stats and specs, and BAM! This thing is right on...first try. I didnt measure the group, but knowing what the plate size is, can get an idea. Also this is off the roof of my truck with a bipod only.

Plate is 10" x 10" steel (red arrow in pic). Ammo is Federal GMM 168gr SMK. Rifle is Savage BVSS .308...completely stock, no mods except adding rail and scope.
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:43 AM   #2
KLWoodall
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Nice. Just bought my boy a Savage Model 11 Trophy .300 WSM. BDC on it.
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Old 06-12-2017, 04:07 PM   #3
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Have you checked out Nikon's Spot On Program to use with your BDC scope? It's easy to use and I think you will find it very accurate too. Drop me a note if I can help you get dialed in, I promise it's more accurte then Kentucky windage.

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Old 06-12-2017, 04:14 PM   #4
T_Sebastian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bman940 View Post
Have you checked out Nikon's Spot On Program to use with your BDC scope? It's easy to use and I think you will find it very accurate too. Drop me a note if I can help you get dialed in, I promise it's more accurte then Kentucky windage.

Yes, I have. This is actually, exactly what I was refering too.

I have the app on my phone, and it calculates great. The reference to "Kentucky windage", was just a reference to how the reticle shows the calculated holdover points with out dialing the turrets for known distance.
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Old 06-12-2017, 04:16 PM   #5
mikeyb_23
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I used that app before going to Luguna to chase nilgais. Shoot a nilgai calf at 200yds and a whitetail for at 260. App worked great.
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Old 06-13-2017, 06:01 PM   #6
kumathebear
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Use it all the time and works great so far!
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:04 AM   #7
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Great to hear! Nikon is constantly updating the ammo option's as new ammo hits shelves. As with any program your results are only going to be as good as the data you enter. I encourage you to measure scope height and if possible chronograph your load for increased downrange accuracy.
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:30 PM   #8
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They updated recently because they have my 6.5-300 now.
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:59 AM   #9
KChildress
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Default What am I missing with Spot-On?

I'm sure that I'm overlooking the obvious but I need help clarifying two points with Spot-On. I've been trying to get an answer from Nikon for a week and am getting nowhere; I thought I'd ask people who seem to be using the app. My questions are related to:

1) Suggested sighting for targets at a distance farther than zero point.
2) Understanding difference between the Field Reference Chart and the Ballistics Report.

First for #1) Please assume I have input accurate data for scope model, ammo, sight height, etc. If I am zeroed at 100-yards but aiming for a target at 200-yards, Spot-On is telling me to set my sights to shoot -1.96 inches low at 200 yards for a 100-yard zero. Maybe I'm reading it backward but clearly the bullet drops over distance. I am accustomed to aiming higher in this scenario. Why wouldn't I set the sight to shoot 1.96-inches LOW to compensate for bullet drop that occurs over the extra 100 yards beyond zero?

2) I printed the Field Reference Chart and the Ballistics Report for this scenario. Both charts are for 25-yard increments at 500-yard distance. And while all data input matches exactly between the two reports I am seeing difference in the suggested Zero Adjustments. Here are a few examples (full reports attached):

25 yards: Field Reference Chart shows 6 clicks and the Ballistics Report shows 12 clicks.

200 yards: Field Reference Chart shows 1 click and the Ballistics Report shows 2 clicks.

250 yards: Field Reference Chart shows 2 clicks and the Ballistics Report shows 4 clicks.

500 yards: Field Reference Chart shows 9 clicks and the Ballistics Report shows 17 clicks.

All of the suggested clicks are different between 250 yards and 500 yards.

Thanks in advance for helping me sort this out.

Regards,

Kevin






Last edited by KChildress; 06-15-2017 at 09:01 AM..
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:30 PM   #10
Horitexan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KChildress View Post
I'm sure that I'm overlooking the obvious but I need help clarifying two points with Spot-On. I've been trying to get an answer from Nikon for a week and am getting nowhere; I thought I'd ask people who seem to be using the app. My questions are related to:

1) Suggested sighting for targets at a distance farther than zero point.
2) Understanding difference between the Field Reference Chart and the Ballistics Report.

First for #1) Please assume I have input accurate data for scope model, ammo, sight height, etc. If I am zeroed at 100-yards but aiming for a target at 200-yards, Spot-On is telling me to set my sights to shoot -1.96 inches low at 200 yards for a 100-yard zero. Maybe I'm reading it backward but clearly the bullet drops over distance. I am accustomed to aiming higher in this scenario. Why wouldn't I set the sight to shoot 1.96-inches LOW to compensate for bullet drop that occurs over the extra 100 yards beyond zero?

2) I printed the Field Reference Chart and the Ballistics Report for this scenario. Both charts are for 25-yard increments at 500-yard distance. And while all data input matches exactly between the two reports I am seeing difference in the suggested Zero Adjustments. Here are a few examples (full reports attached):

25 yards: Field Reference Chart shows 6 clicks and the Ballistics Report shows 12 clicks.

200 yards: Field Reference Chart shows 1 click and the Ballistics Report shows 2 clicks.

250 yards: Field Reference Chart shows 2 clicks and the Ballistics Report shows 4 clicks.

500 yards: Field Reference Chart shows 9 clicks and the Ballistics Report shows 17 clicks.

All of the suggested clicks are different between 250 yards and 500 yards.

Thanks in advance for helping me sort this out.

Regards,

Kevin







"Set sights to shoot 1.72" low at 200 for a 100yd zero?" That's friggin ridiculous. They obviously MEAN to hold over 1.72" to drop the bullet in at 200; or dial in 1.72" to enable the drop. They sure have weird wording. The Ballistic discrepancy between the two 'reports' has me just as confused! Lol! That makes NO sense. I only have 1 Nikon scope (P-300) and I played around with that software for about 5 minutes and decided to stick with the ballistic apps I already own. Mainly because I'm more familiar with them; but also because they seemed more robust, on a quick glance.

I'd suggest getting StrelokPro or Applied Ballistics app. StrelokPro will give you the adjusted scope image, like the SpotOn program along with the ability to create dope charts - 'reports,' as you called them. I've never seen any discrepancies (like you're seeing) when using these apps. They work flawlessly. For ELR I think the AB app is certainly superior but inside 1000yds, StrelokPro is plenty good and, if you have a BDC reticle (w/ those arbitrary subtensions, as opposed to MOA or Milrad subtensions) the adaptive image of your reticle can be really helpful in determining a quick holdover.

Kinda seems like Nikon followed their modus operandi - create something that looks like a mallard and sounds like a mallard but turns out to be a coot. Doesn't seem like Spot On lives up to its name.


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Old 06-16-2017, 04:59 AM   #11
KChildress
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Horitexan, Thanks for the sanity check! I just fitted the Nikon P-223 3x32 BDC Carbine to my M4. I had just learned of the Spot-On tools when I purchased the scope and I haven't given it a range test yet, but tomorrow is the big day.

The Spot-On language is definitely odd when instructing to "aim low" for targets farther than zero distance. I can almost over look what seems like simple "backward language" but I'm darned disappointed with the inconsistency of those two reports. This is my first experience with ballistics software of that sort so I was tickled to find a tool from the scope maker that generated the reports/reference charts. But its kind of hard to put much faith into any of that information when the two pieces of information vary so wildly. I appreciate the recommendation of the other two apps. I'll look at 'em for sure.

Anywho, maybe I'll get an intelligible reply from Nikon. I'll post back if I hear anything.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:52 AM   #12
T_Sebastian
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Yeah, the wording is a bit strange, but technically its correct. It seems as though its trying to tell you how to zero your scope at 100, by shooting at 200. If you wanted it to be zeroed at 100, then yes, you would set the scope so that your POI is low at 200.

Ive not messed with the P-223 scope at all. I've only used the app with the Prostaff models. It appears that the difference in the Field Reference Chart, and the Ballistics Report is a 1:2 ratio. I do recall there being some question as to whether the turrets are 1/4" MOA or 1/2" MOA, so maybe thats where thats coming from?
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:01 AM   #13
KChildress
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Sebastian View Post
It appears that the difference in the Field Reference Chart, and the Ballistics Report is a 1:2 ratio. I do recall there being some question as to whether the turrets are 1/4" MOA or 1/2" MOA, so maybe thats where thats coming from?
T_Sebastian, Thanks for the reply and for trying to help. You've hit on something that I would like to add. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this to make sure I'm looking at it the right way since I'm sure my confusion is 'cause of my ignorance on the matter. The image of the reticle I used in my original post was not set for the same atmospheric conditions as was in the two reports. I'm including a new set of images here to keep it all aligned.

Here's a quote from the literature that came with the P-223 3x32: "The reticle is designed for a 200 yd zero, with the first hash mark below the center crosshair representing 400 yd and the second hash mark representing 600 yd ...". As for the turret clicks, I'm seeing two pieces of information. The Nikon specs online say 1/2". Although those specs don't explicitly say the 1/2" is at 200 yards, the specs do include the same quote as stated above. The literature that came with the scope also says 1/4" at 100 yds, so those two adjustments (1/2" at 200 yd and 1/4" at 100 yd) does agree. Correct?

I do indeed want to zero the scope at 100 yd. I would like to experience shooting holdover with this BDC reticle to see where it takes me. But if I can get my head around it, I also want to be able to use the turrets. I'd love to be able to use the Spot-On field reference charts - I just need to get some trust in what I see.

Here's the new images. Would you (or anyone) mind walking me the difference in MOA adjustments. The scenario is the same: zero at 100 yds and target at 200 yds.

Thanks again.






Last edited by KChildress; 06-16-2017 at 08:03 AM..
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:32 AM   #14
bman940
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Default Spot On

One of the features I like about Spot On is how it lets me save ammo. I sight in at 50 yards and use Spot On to tellme where I need to impact on the 50 yard target for a 100 or 200 yard zero. What you #1 question is about is where your POI will be at 200 yards when you are zeroed in at 100. At 200 yards it sows your impact will be 1.96 inches low, if you wanted a 200 yard zero you would make your POI at 100 yards 1.96 inches high. I use the P-223 3X on one of my carbine rifles and it is a favorite. For me I understand it's and my limitation's. For my older eye's a 3X scope is only going to get me 200 yards. That being said my son has used it to hit 10 inch steel at 400 yards. He absolutely did not shoot 100 % that day. I didn't even bother to try. I will pass your concerns on about Spot On's language and see if we can make things more clear.
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:56 AM   #15
T_Sebastian
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It appears to me that the turrets are 1/2" at 100 yards. NOT 1/2" at 200.

I punched all the same stats and load data and its giving me the same reticle info that you're showing here. 1/2" @ 100 seems kind of strange to me. Im more used to 1/4", but apparently thats what this fixed power scope is designed for. Im really leaning more toward, the clicks listed in the ballistic report are based off 1/4" in error.

Sure way to find out is take it out and give it a try.
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:59 AM   #16
KChildress
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bman940 View Post
What you #1 question is about is where your POI will be at 200 yards when you are zeroed in at 100. At 200 yards it sows your impact will be 1.96 inches low, if you wanted a 200 yard zero you would make your POI at 100 yards 1.96 inches high.
bman940, thanks a bunch for this comment - this helps a bunch.

But I'm still confused with what to do about the two reports above. T_Sabastian picked up on the range clicks being different by 1:2 on the charts. And Nikon is all over the board stating the MOA adjustments. The Nikon website says 1/2" at 200 yd. The literature in the box says 1/4" at 100 yd. And the turrets are clearly stamped 1/2" at 100 yd. I mean, dammit. I guess I'll be using what's stamped on the scope and just assume the Spot On app is calculating the same. But as I see it, even 1/2" at 100 yards doesn't match the clicks stated on either report.

For 200 yd target at 100 yd zero both reports say that's 1.8" low. The Field Reference chart says 1 click. But doesn't that leave me 1.3" from the target? The Ballistics Report says 2 clicks, still 0.8" from the target. I'm not trying to split hairs - or maybe I am - but I don't know how "spot on" Spot On is supposed to be. Do you see anything at all that correlates in these reports?

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Old 06-16-2017, 09:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Sebastian View Post
Sure way to find out is take it out and give it a try.
Indeed. Will do it.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:25 AM   #18
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Another variable here is going to be your scope height above the bore centerline. It may very well be what is skewing your numbers. I see you have it set at 2.5 which seems a bit on the high side, but I guess not terribly so on an AR type rifle.

I was just reading a discussion on this not too long ago on 2cool (though the discussion itself occurred in 2009)

Which of the following loads is the "flatter shooting load?"

A. Dead on at 200, 7.5" low at 300; 23" low at 400
vs.
B. Dead on at 200, 6.75" low at 300; 21" low at 400

I think we would all say that load B is the flatter shooting load. Agree??

Guess what? The two loads are identical: same bc .287, same mv 3000 fps, same everything, EXCEPT height above bore. The "flatter shooting" load is the one with the scope 3.5" above bore, not the one that was 1.5" above bore.

Again trajectory relative to the direction of the bore is not affected by bore height; however, tracjectory relative to the horizon is affected by bore height.


Take a look at this topic:
http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/sh...=243035&page=3
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:20 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Sebastian View Post
Another variable here is going to be your scope height above the bore centerline.
Good find on that forum discussion. I'm confident with the 2.5" measurement and I definitely saw how the numbers changed when I changed my scope height from the 1.5" default.
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Old 06-16-2017, 12:32 PM   #20
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Alright guys, I think I'm almost there. Although the previous Field Reference Charts and Ballistic Reports don't match for number of turret clicks for "X" distance, I'm beginning to think the Ballistic Report may be correct.

But I'm also realizing that I am missing a fundamental understanding of matters involving MOA and turret clicks. If someone could walk me through a couple scenarios, I think I'll be able to solve my problem.

Again, assuming I'm zeroed at 100 yds and for my scope I'm working with 1 click = 1/2" at 100 yds. So that becomes 1.0" at 200 yds? If that is correct, what should we see at 300 yds ... 1.5"? What about 400 yds ... 2.0"?

Finally, knowing that 1 click = 1/2" at 100 yds: If you were to experience 9.0" of drop at 300 yds, how many clicks to dial out the 9.0"? And why, please? Similar scenario: what about dealing with 23.0" of drop at 400 yds?

I appreciate everyone's patience on this! Gotta drive a few hours tomorrow to where I'm sighting the scope so just trying to get it all straight now.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:50 AM   #21
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I hope this screen shot helps you out. I took my P-223 out yesterday just to make sure all was ok with the data and short of having the exact same bullet, it all worked out. Assuming you are sighting in on a 50 yard target, try to have your point of impact be .76 inches low at 50 yards for a 100 yard zero. I forgot how tough shooting for fine accuracy is with a 3X scope. Also, as discussed, remmeber that your scope is 1/2 inch per click at 100 yards or 1/4 inch per click at 50 yards. Let us know how the sight in session goes.

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Old 06-17-2017, 10:55 AM   #22
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A pic from my range day here in N. Tx yesterday. Dang hot let me tell you. Make sure you zero the turrets too. Lift up,turn them to zero and push down to lock them in. This will help you if you ever turn dial out your distance or if they ever turn by accident. I always glance at mine to make sure they are where they are suppsoed to be. This scope has easily seen over 10,000 rounds under it.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:02 AM   #23
T_Sebastian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KChildress View Post
Alright guys, I think I'm almost there. Although the previous Field Reference Charts and Ballistic Reports don't match for number of turret clicks for "X" distance, I'm beginning to think the Ballistic Report may be correct.

But I'm also realizing that I am missing a fundamental understanding of matters involving MOA and turret clicks. If someone could walk me through a couple scenarios, I think I'll be able to solve my problem.

Again, assuming I'm zeroed at 100 yds and for my scope I'm working with 1 click = 1/2" at 100 yds. So that becomes 1.0" at 200 yds? If that is correct, what should we see at 300 yds ... 1.5"? What about 400 yds ... 2.0"?

Finally, knowing that 1 click = 1/2" at 100 yds: If you were to experience 9.0" of drop at 300 yds, how many clicks to dial out the 9.0"? And why, please? Similar scenario: what about dealing with 23.0" of drop at 400 yds?

I appreciate everyone's patience on this! Gotta drive a few hours tomorrow to where I'm sighting the scope so just trying to get it all straight now.
Sorry, Im just not much help on this one. I also dont have a good grasp on making calculations for dialing turrets for distance/windage. This is actually one of the reasons I like the BDC reticle. I dont have to dial anything...lol.

How did your range trip go?
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:16 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KChildress View Post
Alright guys, I think I'm almost there. Although the previous Field Reference Charts and Ballistic Reports don't match for number of turret clicks for "X" distance, I'm beginning to think the Ballistic Report may be correct.

But I'm also realizing that I am missing a fundamental understanding of matters involving MOA and turret clicks. If someone could walk me through a couple scenarios, I think I'll be able to solve my problem.

Again, assuming I'm zeroed at 100 yds and for my scope I'm working with 1 click = 1/2" at 100 yds. So that becomes 1.0" at 200 yds? If that is correct, what should we see at 300 yds ... 1.5"? What about 400 yds ... 2.0"?

Finally, knowing that 1 click = 1/2" at 100 yds: If you were to experience 9.0" of drop at 300 yds, how many clicks to dial out the 9.0"? And why, please? Similar scenario: what about dealing with 23.0" of drop at 400 yds?

I appreciate everyone's patience on this! Gotta drive a few hours tomorrow to where I'm sighting the scope so just trying to get it all straight now.
Stop thinking about inches and clicks and do some reading on MOA. It is much much easier.

No counting clicks, no trying to figure out how many inches a click equates. Punch your data into your calculator, look at the MOA correction it takes and dial to that number on your dial.

I does help to know how much a click equates when correcting for misses though. http://nssf.org/video/facts/moa.cfm

Last edited by adam_p; 06-19-2017 at 09:21 AM..
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