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Old 08-22-2008, 04:15 AM   #101
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actually it does make since mabey not in theory but in practice it works. many European countries have a much different attitude towards drinking and age and they dont have near the problem that we do
Most European countries HEAVILY regulate/restrict private gun ownership.Should we go along with that program?

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Old 08-22-2008, 06:59 AM   #102
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They should make the legal age 100. Most -(not all but most) adults cant drink without getting behind that friggin wheel. I have known several people that have been hurt and/or killed by some dumb ***** who cant wait to get home to drink his friggin beer. If you reach 100 you probably wont be driving anymore or you cant drive any worse.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:00 AM   #103
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I don't get the point of these statistics in terms of changing the drinking age. I mean, 9 out of 10 drivers on Texas roads are adults. So, clearly the BIGGEST problem is with adult drunk drivers, not teenage drunk drivers. I can't find any logical path from this statistic to the statement that, "this would only add fuel to the fire." To me, your statistic only illustrates that we have a terrible problem with people who are CLEARLY old enough to know better. I think it's a lot more likely that lowering the drinking age might provide us with an opportunity to teach future generations about responsible drinking (like they do in europe) and, in the long run, be able to lower the drunk driving numbers.
I just sure don't see how adding more young drivers (able to drink legally) to the mix is going to improve this statistic? I mean if you have adults that don't have the good sense not to drink and drive, how on earth can you expect any better from 18 year old kids? Heck, most of them ain't got any sense when they're sober!

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Old 08-22-2008, 01:06 PM   #104
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I just sure don't see how adding more young drivers (able to drink legally) to the mix is going to improve this statistic? I mean if you have adults that don't have the good sense not to drink and drive, how on earth can you expect any better from 18 year old kids? Heck, most of them ain't got any sense when they're sober!

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Old 08-22-2008, 02:54 PM   #105
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It is estimated that on any given day, 1 in 10 drivers on Texas roads is DWI. On weekends, that number is 1 in 7. Seems to me, this would only add fuel to the fire!

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this number hasnt changed much over the years i would bet, before and after the 21 law was in effect. how will it change if it were dropped back to 18? You see in the above posts that kids will get it whether its legal or not, so there needs to be another reason better than this.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:58 PM   #106
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I think the kids would rather spend their $$ on booze than on a car payment.
So we would be looking at an increase in PI's rather than DWI's..
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Old 08-22-2008, 03:23 PM   #107
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if you want to stop DWI...

1) remove alcohol. as long as it is accessible, it will happen no matter what the age of the driver is. Age limits aren't going to change this one iota.

2) harsh harsh penalties for DUI/DWI and education amongst the ones who are not legally able to do it yet.

Have any of you older people talked to some of the elementary and middle aged school kids? drinking and driving being bad is CRAMMED down their throats so much that they tell me i can't drink my diet coke and drive because i am drinking and driving.
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Old 08-22-2008, 03:34 PM   #108
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When I was in Korea back in the early 90's, you only had to be 18 to drink over there. I was in my late 20's then. Most...around 90% of all new troops that was under 21, abused the alcohol terribly over there. They didn't know how to drink in moderation. The bad thing was that the local alcoholic beverages made there in Korea was unregulated, therefore we had a lot of kids get alcohol poisoning to the point it almost killed them. I can't count how many times I was called in the middle of the night by my 1st Sgt to go with him to get some of young guys that worked for me. One of the young troops was at the main gate, butt naked...at 4am in the morning. All he could say is "it's cold out here"...the temp was around 28 degrees and it was snowing. He didn't have a clue. The Soju surely knocked his socks off. Needless to say, he surely put a bad spot on his career with that one.

I think that by lowering the age limit, you are allowing an opportunity for young kids to "legally" get into trouble, turn in to alcoholics, and possibly ruin their lives. That is not to say that some over 21 do the same thing...I just think that most kids at 18 are not as mature as most at 21...and again, that's not to say that some 21 and older are mature either.

my 2 cents...
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Old 08-22-2008, 04:08 PM   #109
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if you want to stop DWI...

1) remove alcohol. as long as it is accessible, it will happen no matter what the age of the driver is. Age limits aren't going to change this one iota.

2) harsh harsh penalties for DUI/DWI and education amongst the ones who are not legally able to do it yet.

Have any of you older people talked to some of the elementary and middle aged school kids? drinking and driving being bad is CRAMMED down their throats so much that they tell me i can't drink my diet coke and drive because i am drinking and driving.
I guess Im cynical...made to many visits to mom and dad to break the sad news about little Johnny not coming home.

Selling of Alcohol and the Defending of People who drink to much alcohol and make life altering decisions. Its good money for those who have a hand in both. Efforts are made every year to make DUI/DWI offenses tougher. For the most part, they are fought AGAINST tooth and nail. Again...its a money maker (No offense DWI Lawyer), and if I was specialized in defending drunks, I would want the upper hand against those who take em off the streets. I completly understand both sides of it. Dont agree with it, but understand it.

Poor parenting aside...I have seen many good "kids" screw up just once because of alcohol, and for some..... thier lives will never be the same. But kids will drink at 18 or 21, been doing it for a long time. Why change what we have now?

.2cnts
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Old 08-22-2008, 04:32 PM   #110
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this number hasnt changed much over the years i would bet, before and after the 21 law was in effect. how will it change if it were dropped back to 18? You see in the above posts that kids will get it whether its legal or not, so there needs to be another reason better than this.

While minors may be able to get there hands on it like people have said above, I would like to think the majority of vendors do not sell to minors. I have to agree with TB on the statistic. Lowering the age couldn't help those numbers a bit, and if anything, the numbers would increase. Think about it this way, how many bars do people go to in the city, that are very strict about under age drinking? How about clubs? Most I've been to, won't even let you inside without flashing an ID to a bouncer. Now, think if they lowered the age to 18, there would be that many more people going to those clubs and bars, and then driving home. Wouldn't that add to the drunk driving stats? As of now, I would think a lot of under age drinkers are not consuming in public.

People can say what they want, but lowering the age will increase the amount of people consuming, which logically would increase in the numbers of DWI's. Yes, many minors do consume now illegally, but I'm sure there are a few that don't or seldomly do, because of the laws on the books. I'm sure there are a few 18 year olds that don't want a minor in possession charge on their record.

At the end of the day, it sucks to be 18 when it comes to beer consumption, and most at that age look forward to turning 21. Just let it be, because it's not going to change. Even though its a state law, the fed has put pressures on states to keep the bar at 21. Heck, the only reason LA upped the age from 18 was because the federal government threatened to cut their federal highway budget among other things.
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Old 08-22-2008, 05:26 PM   #111
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I stand firm. More legal alcohol sales more DWI's period. And for those talking about that the youngsters are going to do it anyway so why not make it legal then why don't we make murder or robbery legal after all people do it anyway. I have seen what alcohol does to peoples lives (it ruins them). And for those throwing out statistics where did you get them? I am basing my stuff on my personal observations and my believes. Besides there are three types of liars (1. Liars, 2. Danged Liars, and 3. Statisticians) .
I totally appreciate your belief but trying to draw an analogy between lowering the drinking age BACK to the age it USED to be and legalizing crimes like murder is plain ridiculous. We're talking about extending a right that is ALREADY available to most people BACK (they had it when I was a kid) to another segment of the population ( one that can vote and die for this country)- you can not draw any rational analogy to legalizing a crime that's NEVER been legal and is denied to every member of society. It just doesn't make sense. No offense meant, but if we were talking about legalizing drunk driving you could draw an analogy like that- but we're not. A more accurate analogy- and one that further proves the rationale of those that believe lowering the legal age would be a good thing- is legalizing cocealed handgun permits. The libs argued that more people carrying guns would lead to more gun crimes; which we all know is neither true nor born-out by the facts/statistics. Gun crimes are comitted by criminals and keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding people doesn't deter crime. The same thing applies to the legal drinking age. Denying alcohol to EVERY 18 year old only punishes those kids who WOULD be responsible- the ones who are criminals will get alcohol and drive drunk no matter the "legal" age.

Calling people who use statistics "liars" is just plain rude. I'll grant you, there are cases where statistcs are incorrectly gathered and where they are missused; but the statistics that i've seen used in this thread are not the kind that are in debate.

You're absolutely right- alcohol HAS ruined quite a few people's lives. But, so has religion and love. I don't see many people arguing against them! The thing is, people who ruin their lives with ANYTHING have issues already and the excessive drinking, fanatical religious beliefs, or obsession with another are all SYMPTOMS of a problem- not the problem itself. To fix the problem we have to deal with the problem itself, not the symptom. When we jump to a knee-jerk reaction and approach a problem with emotion, we rarely do the right thing
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:37 PM   #112
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You're absolutely right- alcohol HAS ruined quite a few people's lives. But, so has religion and love. I don't see many people arguing against them! The thing is, people who ruin their lives with ANYTHING have issues already and the excessive drinking, fanatical religious beliefs, or obsession with another are all SYMPTOMS of a problem- not the problem itself. To fix the problem we have to deal with the problem itself, not the symptom. When we jump to a knee-jerk reaction and approach a problem with emotion, we rarely do the right thing
I don't think he's talking about the drunk's life, he brought on his own problems. It's the thousands of people killed or maimed every year and their family that has to go on without them.

I too would like to see the link or source to the stats mentioned above. Stats without a source are meaningless.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:47 PM   #113
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When I was still in college I would probably have been on board, but ten years later I'm not so sure!
+1, you want to see auto fatalities skyrocket, go ahead and lower the drinking age. Have you seen the interstate lately, there are alot more vehicles on the road today than there were when 18 used to be the drinking age.

Last edited by DFWarcher; 08-22-2008 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:00 PM   #114
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If you are old enough to DIE for me and your COUNTY you should be old enough to BUY!!!
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:02 PM   #115
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Changing it to 18 will help binge drinking IMHO, WHY? because most college kids under 21 drink as much alcohol as they can before they leave for the bars. By doing so they consume very large quantities in a small amount of time as oposed to the over 21 kids that have all night long to drink. I know for a fact that this is what goes on (I just got out of college in 06 and I went to the School For Alcoholics or Sex Fun and ALcohol SFA)
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:20 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Horitexan View Post
I totally appreciate your belief but trying to draw an analogy between lowering the drinking age BACK to the age it USED to be and legalizing crimes like murder is plain ridiculous. We're talking about extending a right that is ALREADY available to most people BACK (they had it when I was a kid) to another segment of the population ( one that can vote and die for this country)- you can not draw any rational analogy to legalizing a crime that's NEVER been legal and is denied to every member of society. It just doesn't make sense. No offense meant, but if we were talking about legalizing drunk driving you could draw an analogy like that- but we're not. A more accurate analogy- and one that further proves the rationale of those that believe lowering the legal age would be a good thing- is legalizing cocealed handgun permits. The libs argued that more people carrying guns would lead to more gun crimes; which we all know is neither true nor born-out by the facts/statistics. Gun crimes are comitted by criminals and keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding people doesn't deter crime. The same thing applies to the legal drinking age. Denying alcohol to EVERY 18 year old only punishes those kids who WOULD be responsible- the ones who are criminals will get alcohol and drive drunk no matter the "legal" age.

Calling people who use statistics "liars" is just plain rude. I'll grant you, there are cases where statistcs are incorrectly gathered and where they are missused; but the statistics that i've seen used in this thread are not the kind that are in debate.

You're absolutely right- alcohol HAS ruined quite a few people's lives. But, so has religion and love. I don't see many people arguing against them! The thing is, people who ruin their lives with ANYTHING have issues already and the excessive drinking, fanatical religious beliefs, or obsession with another are all SYMPTOMS of a problem- not the problem itself. To fix the problem we have to deal with the problem itself, not the symptom. When we jump to a knee-jerk reaction and approach a problem with emotion, we rarely do the right thing
I understand what you are saying about my analogy however the idea of "well they are going to do it anyway so let's make it legal" is the same mentality that I am trying to establish with my analogy. It is a very uneducated idea. It is an idea that to many people use today. It is a dangerous idea. And my quote about statistics is based on the knowledge that statistics are numbers and not real life.

To make alcohol legal for a lesser age is ridiculous. I have one question. Have you ever had to tell a parent that their child is dead because they were drunk and crashed their car or were killed because someone else was drunk and crashed their car? It will change the way you view alcohol and teenagers. I STAND FIRM.

Last edited by big papa; 08-22-2008 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:21 PM   #117
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I guess Im cynical...made to many visits to mom and dad to break the sad news about little Johnny not coming home.

Selling of Alcohol and the Defending of People who drink to much alcohol and make life altering decisions. Its good money for those who have a hand in both. Efforts are made every year to make DUI/DWI offenses tougher. For the most part, they are fought AGAINST tooth and nail. Again...its a money maker (No offense DWI Lawyer), and if I was specialized in defending drunks, I would want the upper hand against those who take em off the streets. I completly understand both sides of it. Dont agree with it, but understand it.

Poor parenting aside...I have seen many good "kids" screw up just once because of alcohol, and for some..... thier lives will never be the same. But kids will drink at 18 or 21, been doing it for a long time. Why change what we have now?

.2cnts
special interests are always going to get in the way of progress(case in point teachers' union and improving the education system), but at some point we're going to have to stand up and smack them down to show them who is more important. that said, i dont think age is as important as education and deterence in stiff penalties. there far moore dwi offenders over 21 than under.

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While minors may be able to get there hands on it like people have said above, I would like to think the majority of vendors do not sell to minors. I have to agree with TB on the statistic. Lowering the age couldn't help those numbers a bit, and if anything, the numbers would increase. Think about it this way, how many bars do people go to in the city, that are very strict about under age drinking? How about clubs? Most I've been to, won't even let you inside without flashing an ID to a bouncer. Now, think if they lowered the age to 18, there would be that many more people going to those clubs and bars, and then driving home. Wouldn't that add to the drunk driving stats? As of now, I would think a lot of under age drinkers are not consuming in public.

People can say what they want, but lowering the age will increase the amount of people consuming, which logically would increase in the numbers of DWI's. Yes, many minors do consume now illegally, but I'm sure there are a few that don't or seldomly do, because of the laws on the books. I'm sure there are a few 18 year olds that don't want a minor in possession charge on their record.

At the end of the day, it sucks to be 18 when it comes to beer consumption, and most at that age look forward to turning 21. Just let it be, because it's not going to change. Even though its a state law, the fed has put pressures on states to keep the bar at 21. Heck, the only reason LA upped the age from 18 was because the federal government threatened to cut their federal highway budget among other things.
the stat is only indicative of people who have been caught or is a guestimate. Its like saying that there are over 12 million illegals in the country when everyone who deals with it agrees that there are far more than what the stats show. instead of keeping status quo with the age of 21, which isnt that much of a deterence, more needs to be done to stop DWI, to which we can't get to happen. That's all i am arguing about here. The age alone isnt going to cut it.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:34 PM   #118
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I understand what you are saying about my analogy however the idea of "well they are going to do it anyway so let's make it legal" is the same mentality that I am trying to establish with my analogy. It is a very uneducated idea. It is an idea that to many people use today. It is a dangerous idea. And my quote about statistics is based on the knowledge that statistics are numbers and not real life.

To make alcohol legal for a lesser age is ridiculous. I have one question. Have you ever had to tell a parent that their child is dead because they were drunk and crashed their car or were killed because someone else was drunk and crashed their car? It will change the way you view alcohol and teenagers. I STAND FIRM.


i'm not on either side of the subject and i'm sorry you have had to do that, but to say that it is uneducated is kinda silly. i will put $1000 on it that if i wanted to tonight i could go buy all the beer and liquor i wanted and all the drugs i wanted, and it wouldn't be hard either.

like i said before, the government has VERY little to say about it. it is up to parents to raise their kids to not be pieces of **** luckily my parents care enough that if i do drink or even think about smokin weed i would probably be marked for life
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:57 PM   #119
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Changing it to 18 will help binge drinking IMHO, WHY? because most college kids under 21 drink as much alcohol as they can before they leave for the bars. By doing so they consume very large quantities in a small amount of time as oposed to the over 21 kids that have all night long to drink. I know for a fact that this is what goes on (I just got out of college in 06 and I went to the School For Alcoholics or Sex Fun and ALcohol SFA)
You just hit it right on the head. I am in college right now and that is exactly what happens. What is the difference if they are driving to the bars drunk or away from the bar drunk? IMO changing it to 18 would help slow down the binge drinking that everyone is so worried about.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:58 PM   #120
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Using some of the logic above and from what Iím reading in this thread they need to make the penalty for drinking under age A LOT stiffer instead legalizing it. To the point as someone stated "they would have to be insane" to do it.
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:13 PM   #121
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it aint gonna change a dang thing except the number of beer runs!!!!
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:17 PM   #122
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it aint gonna change a dang thing except the number of ROOTbeer runs!!!!
agreed....
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:18 PM   #123
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smart...shut up lol.....sry, thats all i got. no comeback for once.
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:19 PM   #124
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smart...shut up lol.....sry, thats all i got. no comeback for once.

I'm done following you around. I'm just makin' sure you aren;t falling asleep..
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:20 PM   #125
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Smart would those be anything like the Hershey Squirts?
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:21 PM   #126
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Ive got mixed opinions on this deal. One hand says no way for the reasons that TB suggested. But on the other hand, i think that if you are old enough to fight fur your country..... you should be able to drink a beer legaly. Just my .02
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:22 PM   #127
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fallin asleep????!!!!!???!!!!!???!!!! are you crazy?! i gotta be in coleman at 5 in the mornin...no point in goin to sleep haha
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:46 PM   #128
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high fenced underaged drinking at its finest coming to you live from the berger ranch! film at 11
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