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Old 11-03-2009, 08:09 AM   #51
skyhawk
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The first couple bucks I shot, I was a teenager and hunting alone. They were not 13" but might as well been 200" racks as excited as I was and just as proud! First couple yrs ihunted and got hooked I never saw a 13 " wide buck.... Would I still be hunting deer today had I not shot those bucks and got so hooked- probably not! I personally think there should be no antler restrictions for a child! Otherwise I support it! Hunting small low deer places and then telling a kid that finally sees a nice buck he ain't big enough is insulting to the hunting tradition/heritage
Agree 100%
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:13 AM   #52
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OK so great the kid got a deer. BUT by definition it was an illegal deer. The GW is paid to enforce ALL game laws at all times, and with that a certain level of discretion comes into play. Glad the GW allowed them to go without a citation, but why cry about 2 hours of lost time? Who is to say that if a person will shoot a deer that is not legal, there are not several other violations or potential violations? Obviously this youth is not a rookie if he is getting warned about incorrectly filling out the tag on the deer, which is another violation, but who is ultimately responsible for educating the youth in the correct and legal way to take animals, from start to finish? I put this all on the shoulders of the adult in the group for not paying closer attention to the details, and training the youths in the correct manner of taking animals, and documenting it.

So just in case someone comes along who just happens to be doing their JOB, everything is legal, and well within the requirements, and this thread doesnt happen. And Artos I would like to know which is more petty, 1/4 inch or incorrectly filling out the license log, because apparently both infractions happened, and neither was cited by the GW. And how many years does this go on until finally the hunter gets cited, and comes on here mad as a hornet saying "I been doing it like that for years, and nothing ever happened!"? Rules is rules, and however slight they may be broken, they can still be enforced!!
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:27 AM   #53
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I am not a big fan of challenging the law, but I have to think that a good lawyer might make a mess of that guy if he had ticketed the youth. If the deer was heavy horned as you say, and everything in the book was correct, then I'd have to think it was in excess of 13" too. I don't quite understand how someone can add a strict measurement to something that is to be estimated in real time.


I have been around measurements and woodworking my entire life. I can't see the difference between 12 3/4 and 13 without a ruler at 20 yards, much less rifle range. How do you guys actually tell? you have to estimate, based on factors that could vary slightly between animals, but you darn sure better be exactly right. Just my .02
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:31 AM   #54
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Rules is rules!!

may this statement follow you the rest of your days
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:32 AM   #55
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it already does, thus no game violations....
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:34 AM   #56
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The book says " To determine if a buck has an inside spread measurement of at least 13 inches, look at the distance from ear-tip to ear-tip on a buck with ears in the alert position."

My question is: If you shoot a buck that has less than 13 inch inside spread but is outside the ears due to having smaller than average ears, is he legal?

On the flip side: If you shoot a buck that has more than 13 inch inside spread but is inside the ears due to having larger than average ears, is he illegal?
I would like to know as well...

Me personally, I will only go after a buck that is on the outside of the ears.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:54 AM   #57
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for youth weekend the 13 in rule should not be enforced (((thats just how I feel))) at that age a kid just wants to take a deer and they shouldnt have to worry about a tape measure
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:03 AM   #58
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Well, it is just a way for anti-hunters to put another rope around our neck. Now we have to be experts at judging animals and take an exam before our license will be issued..........I can see it comin. What the hell is wrong with the America I used to know?!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:06 AM   #59
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I personally think there should be no antler restrictions for a child!
Rifle hunting? = shoot them in the head = adjustable spread! Just kidding.

From a law enforcement perspecive, it would be difficult to enforce a "no spread limit" for kids, because, unfortunately, there will be some knuckle head that will shoot a buck and claim that it was his kid that shot it. Its too bad that rules have to be made for the lowest common denominator (folks who disregard the law), because everyone suffers, including the majority of folks who do obey the law.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:14 AM   #60
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I have had that conversation with my kid a few times. Its hard when they are waiting to get their first buck and one that is probably a little to narrow is feeding out in front of you. I just told my kid the law is the law and if we break that law that makes us no better than poachers. They get sad but they get over it. It's much better than other side of the coin where if you are lucky you just get lectured real good.
I did the same while my son was waiting to pull #40. I expained the laws to him. He wasn't too happy at first, but he knew dad was right. It just made him work harder to accomplish a goal.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:14 AM   #61
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Hope the lesson learned was of a good nature.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:19 AM   #62
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wow
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:02 PM   #63
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The first couple bucks I shot, I was a teenager and hunting alone. They were not 13" but might as well been 200" racks as excited as I was and just as proud! First couple yrs ihunted and got hooked I never saw a 13 " wide buck.... Would I still be hunting deer today had I not shot those bucks and got so hooked- probably not! I personally think there should be no antler restrictions for a child! Otherwise I support it! Hunting small low deer places and then telling a kid that finally sees a nice buck he ain't big enough is insulting to the hunting tradition/heritage
Couldn't agree more. My first was a spike, my dad told me to wait in the stand till he got back before I got out. He said as he walked up to the stand I looked like a cat squirrel bouncin off the walls, when he opened the door, I just about blew his clothes off when I passed him. I ran all the way to the deer, it may as well have been a Booner.

This is just another way for the state and timber companys to raise the profit margin on deer in certain parts of the state to what it "should" be. There is green in the eyes of those collecting lease fees. They know if they can replicate what is going on in South Texas all over the state, then everyone (except for those who could give a crap about antlers) wins. Keep this in mind in a few years when your deer lease in East Texas that you used to pay $500/year for, all of the sudden costs $1000/year and eventually $1500/year. Why can't people be happy with a "trophy" relative to their area, rather than a "trophy" measured in an arbitrary amount of inches. I am sorry to say that now that the horn hungry agenda has caught on, there is no turning back, we will all be affected, whether we like or not.

OPEN YOUR MOUTH DAMIT, I KNOW WHATS GOOD FOR YOU BETTER THAN YOU DO!!!!!

BTW.. I hunt for horns, but horns relative to my area!
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:27 PM   #64
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Well it happened. a ex-inlaw took hi son on youth weekend hunting and he shot a 12 3/4" heavy horned 8pt. The Warden was not happy and searched there whole truck including duffel bags. They were detained for almost 2 hrs and if it had not been a youth the warden said there would have been a $850 fine given and the deer taken. So to all you guys that think as long as it's close it will be ok, it won't be..
Yep this is going to be a problem, because other hunters are having to pass these deer, especially bow hunters since we see them at close range and they are not outside the ears. Some hunters also think that well that's a mature deer by body size /age so that is close enough for me, or "meets the spirit of the law"

The 12 3/4" bucks are going to be the hardest ones for those hunters to pass on. They know they are not outside their ears but they cannot believe they are not legal.

When you start seeing and passing 12 1/2" deer on your land every year and your hopes are real high for next year, but guess what, they are not going to show back up. They will die during gun season. But next year you will again see some nice 12 1/2" ( that were 10" last year) bucks that you will pass on and the sad cycle begins again.

RD
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Old 11-04-2009, 03:04 PM   #65
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may this statement follow you the rest of your days
Wow, Artos. Your resentment for anyone who wants the AR law upheld is scary! From where does that anger come?

On what other laws can we fudge? DUI? "But ossifer, I only blew a 0.10. Hic."

And then there are the pedophiles? Let's get rid of the age of consent laws, shall we? None of you guys would support that, for obvious reasons.

Some guys posted that antler restrictions are insulting to the hunting heritage. I disagree. Apparently I am in a tiny minority on this thread who think that whacking an illegal buck is an insult to our hunting heritage.

This thread is very revealing that Hunter Ethics is in short supply around here.

For all you guys who don't know how to gauge a 13 inch spread, I recommend that you impose an additional restriction on yourselves... Only shoot at deer that have what appears to be a 24 inch spread. The result, hopefully, will be pretty low odds that you kill or wound an illegal buck.

BTW, for you guys who don't know whether the law calls for a minimum 13" spread, or for a spread outside the ears, it's 13 inches that matters. If you shoot a mutant buck with 12 foot long ears, and his spread is 13 inches, you are legal. If you shoot a buck that has a 12.999999999999 inch spread that was born with no ears, or that has ears spreading only an inch from the skull, for example, your deer is illegal.

Do we want to be ethical hunters? Then let's follow the law and not let our emotions rule our hunts. Let's also demand that our fellow hunters follow the law.

Guys & gals, about 9% of Americans hunt; about 9% of Americans are ANTIHUNTERS. The huge majority of Americans are not against hunting, but they are not die-hards like we are, either. It's this huge majority who will determine whether our great, wholesome tradition will live on or die. We need these folks on our side when they go to the polls to vote. It's coming guys... the Antis are slowly eroding our right to hunt. We must police our own, or we will lose in the long run.

I am glad the GW did not cite the child. Hopefully that child will become a spokesman for hunter ethics while practicing what he preaches forevermore. Let us please stop mocking the AR law, and those we pay to enforce the game & fish laws. There is so much sarcasm on this thread, putting off a lot more heat than light.

I'd like to see more posts like, "I oppose the AR law, but I'm going to obey it because I respect our sport, and I am an ethical hunter."

Let us teach succeeding generations to respect the law instead of teaching them to formulate excuses for breaking the law. Any youths reading this thread are going to get the wrong impression of how life works. GWs are not interlopers raining on our parade. They are our allies and friends. Let us convince ourselves of that and start living it. There is nothing like the freedom that comes from rigidly obeying all game and fish laws to the best of our abilities. We can't know every law, and we therefore are all at risk for committing a violation. Nevertheless, the freedom I get from considering Hunter Ethics EVERYTHING, is wonderful. Obeying the game and fish laws makes our sports absolutely thrilling to me.
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Old 11-04-2009, 03:52 PM   #66
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Just curious how many of you "line walkers" ever drive over the speed limit........
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Old 11-04-2009, 03:54 PM   #67
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Just curious how many of you "line walkers" ever drive over the speed limit........
"rules is rules"

lighten up bh...I just spend too much time with gw & other leo's. Some use discretion as did this one.
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:02 PM   #68
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"rules is rules"

lighten up bh...I just spend too much time with gw & other leo's. Some use discretion as did this one.
I like it when I get a "pass" at their discretion
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:02 PM   #69
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well since you ask, I do occasionally drive over the speed limit, and know that if i get caught, I can receive a citation for breaking the law. I do not expect any LEO to "cut me some slack" because I am just going to the grocery store or what not. I am very grateful if they do, but just because the length of the trip is small does not mean they have to. Kinda like just because the kid shot it makes it different. He/She should have been taught better, and if the deer do not meet the minimum requirements set forth by the state, they will have to wait, or hunt a different deer that does.
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:16 PM   #70
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it already does, thus no game violations....
holy smokes.....NEVER.....not once in your life have you ever committed a game violation....then you didn't hunt much as a kid, bird hunt, and you don't fish at all

you've never gut hooked a 9" bass and returned it to the lake knowing it was going to die.....that's a violation....even my buddies that are GW's say that the fisherman is between a rock and a hard place on that one.....illegal if you keep the fish and illegal if you put it back....everyone throws them back taking the chance they don't get caught.....still laws are laws
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:16 PM   #71
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I look forward to a few years down the road when people won't be chomping at the bit to shoot a 2.5 year old buck with a 13" spread. If they can just show a little patience and restraint for two years they will be rewarded. Patience and restraint... heck of lesson. We only regret things when we feel like we do not know the value of our sacrifice.

Last edited by Bobcat; 11-04-2009 at 04:20 PM..
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:22 PM   #72
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Nope not ever once in my life have I got a game violation. Dont fish much now but have hutned and fished a lot since i was young. what exactly are you implying?? Never gut hooked a 9 inch fish, never shot an illegal deer, never hunted on a property I didnt have permission to be on, or fished any water that I wasnt supposed to. Neve shot at a bird from an improved roadway... the list goes on.
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:30 PM   #73
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wow....good for you....I know I've accidently doubled on birds when I only needed one.....all I'm saying is accidents happen in the field......not implying road hunting, trespassing, or anything of that nature......just hard to believe you've never had an accident like 1 bird over the limit because of an accidental double or gut hooking a fish that wasn't legal size......all I'm saying is if you worm fish enough it WILL happen and if you bird hunt enough it WILL happen......there's also plenty of "accidents" that happen on trophy ranches in South Texas with guides that have guided for years down there

Carry on folks
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:41 PM   #74
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I heard she looked like a super model...lol.
This is worthless w/o pics!!!
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:42 PM   #75
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I got a ticket in los fresnos on the way to SPI going 31 in a 30 back in high school. Almost got my noggin thumped for asking if he had a quota to meet....but hey, rules is rules, right?? Size of tires and variation in spedometers deserve no discretion.




texag...I have never received a game citation either but do remember messing up on the back log when it first came out, have miscounted a dove limit, and bet I've had some shrinkage on trout and redfish at some point and know I have forgotten my wallet at camp and had to tag a deer a tad late. I do remember my Dad getting a ticket for me at Falcon one time for a life vest deal but don't remember the exact details....age change or something??

Just cuz I never got a ticket does not mean I am perfect....gw buddy has a great story on a duck double with a mutual friend.
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:11 PM   #76
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holy smokes.....NEVER.....not once in your life have you ever committed a game violation....then you didn't hunt much as a kid, bird hunt, and you don't fish at all

you've never gut hooked a 9" bass and returned it to the lake knowing it was going to die.....that's a violation....even my buddies that are GW's say that the fisherman is between a rock and a hard place on that one.....illegal if you keep the fish and illegal if you put it back....everyone throws them back taking the chance they don't get caught.....still laws are laws
It boils down to a difference in our values, Texag87. Willfully shooting an illegal buck is different than hooking an undersized fish. Let me explain... One can view the buck and judge his spread to be legal, questionable, or illegal. The wise thing to do is to shoot the obviously legal buck, or no buck at all. When fishing, anything can be hooked regardless of the ethics, intelligence, or expertise of the fisherman. Legally, you must release the doomed fish to be eaten by scavengers instead of yourself. If a GW cites you, you will win in court, I believe. However, that is besides the point.

Perhaps worse than the youth killing the illegal buck is the response from so many TBHers. As a group, we seem to disrespect GWs and the job they are tasked to do, and, at least this group, seems to set a poor example for youth hunters.

I regret that we do not set a better example for youth and for nonhunters. Remember, it is the nonhunters who will make or break the future of our sport, and we hunters hold one of the keys to wooing the nonhunters. When a hunter does the right thing, no one ever finds out. When a hunter/poacher does the wrong thing and he gets caught (which rarely occurs, I suspect) it makes the news and we get a black eye.
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:14 PM   #77
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I've never received a game violation either......but I have messed up before......and one of my accidents was on a double and I was hunting with a GW
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:20 PM   #78
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Accidentally sent that last post prematurely. Just wanted to add... Let's all consider the potential consequences of our words and actions. This thread is troubling to me due to my high ethical standards. I will not knowingly violate a game or fish law. Did I always practice that ethic? No. Did I have anyone mentor me as a youth hunter? No. I had to learn on my own. If I have kids, will I teach them to have the highest of ethical standards? Yes. Let us all do this and let us preserve our sport for as long as possible.

I have to finish packing now. I am very late to leave for my next hunt. Wish me luck and stealth!!
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:20 PM   #79
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I know a guy who killed a buck and it was almost 13", i mean very close maybe 1/8" off. This guy called the game warden to tell him what had happened. The game warden showed up measured the rack and gave the the guy a big fine. He probably thought since it was only off by 1/8 of an inch the GW would let him go since he called it in and told him about it. So if you are off alittle watch out cause they will fine you.
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:20 PM   #80
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In the dove field, when there aren't many doves, kids want to shoot anything that flies over. Just because a plover looks like a dove, does it make it right when the kid shoots it?

In the turkey woods in the spring, kids want to shoot the hens if they walk in and the gobbler doesn't. But we don't let them, because they aren't legal in the spring.

Both of these scenarios teach ethics, and following the laws, especially if we take the time to explain the biology behind the laws. The same thing can be said for antler restrictions.

And, in most counties with ARs, does and spikes can also be taken. For a first deer, it doesn't matter if it's a doe or spike or 200" deer (as some have already stated on here), so let them thin the herd a bit with a doe and enjoy that experience, and learn a bit about management and hunting while they are out there.

If you just aren't sure if that buck is 13", let him go another year, and he'll probably be more than 13" next year. yes, there are a few exceptions, but not many. These ARs manage for the majority, and the majority of young bucks are less than 13". The majority of 3.5+ bucks are more than 13".
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:20 PM   #81
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The key is not to ruin a kids experience...let's face it, the future of hunting & fishing is with the children who show an interest & a gw should know this & act accordingly. My feeling is there should have been a heart to heart and explanation of the importance of the 13" rule while still keeping the young-uns spirits up & congrats for a kill. We are alking about 1/4" that is near impossible to judge on the hoof.

I wasn't there so I don't know if the gw had reason to believe adult was in another violation....the actions just seemed excessive for the described offense & could leave some kids disheartened over what should have been a very positive hunting experience and not to mention the importance of the gw role with us as hunters.


There is an old saying that you never get a second chance to make a 1st impression. Not sure a 2 hour hold and intense search is the way to stamp a kids memory over such a petty infraction.

1/4"
agreed.....got yo' back Artos
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:24 PM   #82
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not a difference in values....I must have failed to see in the original post where it said they willingly shot a deer they knew wouldn't make 13 inches......if indeed that was the case then yes, write them up....since it didn't say that I assumed they made a mistake of a 1/4 inch which any of us could do
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:30 PM   #83
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I also think the 13" rule is very affective, and glad it is being enforced. The rack size at our property has really jumped up in size and have had the 13" rule for 4 years know.
Kids should also use the 13" rule, it will help them practice the sport at a young age and not just to go out and shoot the first thing with horns that pops out.
Just my opinion.
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:30 PM   #84
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good thing he didn't give them a ticket.. heck i know guys make a 13 1/2 in bass 14 inches all the time.. its all about how you hold the tape.. lol
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:10 PM   #85
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not a difference in values....I must have failed to see in the original post where it said they willingly shot a deer they knew wouldn't make 13 inches......if indeed that was the case then yes, write them up....since it didn't say that I assumed they made a mistake of a 1/4 inch which any of us could do
Texag87, I again am compelled to suggest that you stick to the 24 inch spread for deer so that you don't kill or wound an illegal buck. I feel silly recommending this to some of you guys since we are all adults here. Nevertheless, it is better to pass on a buck that MAY be illegal than to shoot at him.

I did not imply that the youth knew he was shooting an illegal buck. When I said he willfully shot an illegal buck, I meant that his gun did not misfire, but instead he took aim and shot the illegal deer. Surely the boy did not know the deer was illegal. He surely hoped that the deer was legal. The adult in the scenario is culpable for not instilling a proper ethic in the boy. Hopefully the adult will man up and hunt cleaner from now on.

Remember guys... if it appears to be a 24 inch spread, you'll probably not be shooting at an illegal buck. I passed on a beauty 2 1/2 weeks ago that was inside the ears but probably grossed 110 inches. He was a legal buck, too. I guessed him to be 3 1/2 years old on public land, so I let him walk because of his age. That's just me. I did shoot his girlfriend, though.
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:15 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by BassMaster13 View Post
good thing he didn't give them a ticket.. heck i know guys make a 13 1/2 in bass 14 inches all the time.. its all about how you hold the tape.. lol
I hate to be disagreeable, Bass Master 13, but it's not how you hold the tape. No one be misled by this irresponsible statement. Read the regulations and you'll know how to measure fish. It is unambiguous.

Happy hunting & fishing guys & gals! I'm out the door to try to put the smack down on some serious game! Man I love to hunt!
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:17 PM   #87
tpost
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thats why if in doubt you should never risk it....but i think that youth should be exempt from the rule
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:20 PM   #88
shaft_slinger00
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what ever happen to the benefit of the doubt
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:20 PM   #89
bmac
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GW often let the youth have a little more slack b/c they don't want to ruin hunting or fishing for them for the rest of there lives. But they wont hesitate once you turn 17 or show negligence when they broke the law.
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:51 PM   #90
day0082
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when i took my son to the hunters education class put on by tpwl , i ask that very question and they replied, the first year we will understand if its close, and give warnings, if it isnt even close we will give tickets.. the next year we will issue tickets..
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:46 PM   #91
texag87
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Wow bloodhound.....you've taken ana! to an all new level

Quote:
at least this group, seems to set a poor example for youth hunters
I've been on this site for years and know quite a few TBHers and the majority take their kids hunting & fishing are teach them the ethics of the sport. In my book you're WAY out of line with this statement.

Quote:
This thread is troubling to me due to my high ethical standards. I will not knowingly violate a game or fish law.
that's all fine and dandy but nowhere on this thread has anyone said they would knowingly violate a game or fish law.....they've just addressed the mistake and how the GW handled it

Quote:
Texag87, I again am compelled to suggest that you stick to the 24 inch spread for deer so that you don't kill or wound an illegal buck. I feel silly recommending this to some of you guys since we are all adults here.
buddy, you don't even now me....I've hunted for a lot of years and can age/judge deer....didn't know this thread was about a mistake kill that I made

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassMaster13
good thing he didn't give them a ticket.. heck i know guys make a 13 1/2 in bass 14 inches all the time.. its all about how you hold the tape.. lol

I hate to be disagreeable, Bass Master 13, but it's not how you hold the tape. No one be misled by this irresponsible statement. Read the regulations and you'll know how to measure fish. It is unambiguous.
ok genious......bassmaster13 ended his post with lol.......lol means laugh out loud.....that basically means he was joking

lighten up dude....hope you have a good hunt....that said we probably shouldn't ever share a deer camp together...I enjoy safety, ethics, and a good time......ana! - not so much
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:37 PM   #92
LWolken
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If my kids can come home from school and tell me why I should recycle and explain global warming to me at ages 5 and 7 I'm sure they can understand the 13" rule. Its all a matter of doing the right thing or wrong thing. If you shoot a deer that is under 13" contact your game warden don't try to hide it. Just another reason why youth season should be after the general season.

Lance
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:40 PM   #93
systemnt
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I love when people boast of their high ethics in an attempt to show how much better a person/hunter they are.
I especially like it when they use examples of how they have lived the perfect life and never bent/broken/twisted any rules what-so-ever.
Karma usually hit's those one's hard.. and for my fellow God fearing brethern, I believe theres something about those that claim to not have sinned just commited a big one.

Back on topic, GW's , as with all LEO's are granted discretion as part of their job - because laws can be applied to circumstances..and are not intended to be a end-all set in stone commandment. They are to be used as a measure of order.. not the order.

I doubt any of you that claim they would never even think of shooting a buck with anything close to a 13" spread would have hestitated for a second on the buck being reported to have been taken recently by Lee Lakowsky.
It had a 14" spread and is being reported as an absolute monster.

A quarter inch is less than the word inch in this forum... ethic fanatics or not.. the GW's discretion was absolutely in the right place in this case.
Be carefull imposing your ethics on others or slamming others for their differentiating views.
PETA uses ethics as it's reason for being too.
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:48 PM   #94
Artos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LWolken View Post
If you shoot a deer that is under 13" contact your game warden don't try to hide it.

You do that...


^^^^^^^^^^
see stinger's 1/8" post...there have been others here who have had citations given for doing the right thing...only to hit them in the wallet. Not very good advice to give to a tbh member who makes a 1/4" or any other honest mistake.

Next time you go over the speed limit, will you call a black & white to fess up
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:26 PM   #95
q2xlman
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Sounds like the GW was fair.
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