Libertarians & Conservatives

[flywise]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I submit to you exhibit A. "Libertarians and Conservatives" A political thread on TBH where all members are handling themselves in a proper and most distinguished manner while providing an informative and substantive discussion for all.

Proof that in fact the PACE serves a viable purpose here on TBH.

Agreed

[SaltwaterSlick]

OKay.......

Now can we let loose?

[Vermin93]

The problem is, the definition of establishment has been stretched - now it is commonly believed that if a lawmaker is influenced by his faith when forming an opinions on policy, that is somehow government "establishing a religion." What difference does it make if one's opinions are formed by the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Communist Manifesto or old reruns of "The Love Boat?" Let's say Dave thinks abortion is bad because of the Bible and Larry thinks abortion is bad but he is an atheist and a believer in secular humanism. Is Dave's support of a law against abortion then unconstitutional while Larry's is not? Many seem to think that if a law is even tangentially based on a biblical principle it is automatically unconstitutional. There are plenty of non-believers who are pro-life, pro-traditional marriage and hold other traditionally conservative views - they just came to those beliefs without the help of the Bible.

I agree, but the problem cuts both ways.

Regarding your last comment, there's no doubt such people exist, but I'm personally aware of very few of them. I think it would be difficult to argue that Biblical influence isn't the primary driver and uniting force behind the pro-life and traditional marriage movements in the US.

These days I find it frustrating that abortion and same-sex marriage are commonly lumped together in social debates. I'm not sure if this is to the advantage of the Christian right or the secular left, but the combination is a rallying point for both sides in American politics. I will say that as a recovering social conservative, I find myself giving these two distinctly different issues separate and, in my opinion, more reasoned consideration these days. Dang, it feels good to break the mental chains.

[XBowHunter]

She had the obligation to require It but chose not to. He body her rules.

She can kill a living human fetus with out his imput but he has to pay child support for a kids d he may not have even known existed.



On another note, you claim you want gov out

Of everyones life as a libertarian, yet the other day you argued that a restaurant owner had no right to operate his business as he wanted to.

So speak out of both sides of your mouth. And typically, reguardless what you say you are you lean a long way to the left side of every debate.

I feel like it's a privilege to do business in this country. And there are a few prices to pay, like getting a business license, paying taxes and not discriminating.

Those are just my opinions


Are you conservative or are you libertarian?

[XBowHunter]

Again, you are failing to understand that Libertarianism is a political philosophy and that conservatism is a social philosophy. They are not mutually exclusive. I am a conservative libertarian.



You are also conflating same sex marriage which is a civil rights issue and I agree with you on with abortion a "non aggression" issue which I do not agree with you on.



As a libertarian I believe the govt should protect my rights, one of those is against aggression. I should not be murdered by another person, nor should anyone. I believe that abortion on demand for the purpose of birth control as an oops moment is the unjustified killing of a human being. I get to this conclusion through the libertarian philosophy of non aggression. You and the libertarian party do not have to agree with me but you most certainly cannot tell me I am not a libertarian when I come to my conclusion strictly through libertarian philosophy.





Your default argument keeps going to "well that's what we libertarians believe, that's libertarianism". Two different people can apply the same principles to the same case and come up with different conclusions.

We as libertarians will never be able to unite and agree on a candidate then.

I refuse to vote for any candidate that wants to legislate their religious beliefs on the country, and likewise I assume you would not vote for someone who was pro-choice.

By drawing that conclusion, libertarianism has no chance in this country, at least not at uniting social conservatives with libertarians who more closely align with the party platform.

[XBowHunter]

Xbow, non aggression is at the cornerstone of libertarian beliefs. Do you agree or disagree?



"Libertarianism is based on a single ideal, the non-aggression principle, so libertarian rhetoric tends to be remarkably consistent. Libertarians oppose the initiation of force to achieve social or political goals. They reject “first-strike” force, fraud or theft against others; they only use force in self-defense. Those who violate this “non-aggression principle” are expected to make their victims whole as much as possible."



https://www.theadvocates.org/aggression/

I know where you're going and You will not convince me that some people should not have the right to an abortion, sorry.

[XBowHunter]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I submit to you exhibit A. "Libertarians and Conservatives" A political thread on TBH where all members are handling themselves in a proper and most distinguished manner while providing an informative and substantive discussion for all.



Proof that in fact the PACE serves a viable purpose here on TBH.

Pretty wild, Huh?


Lol!!!' [emoji1303]

[Landrover]

I agree, but the problem cuts both ways.
Dang, it feels good to break the mental chains.

These two sentences are pure GREATNESS!!!
Truth.........definitely cuts both ways.
And YES,......the mental chains were released from my soul about 10 years ago........never going back to political dogma just because it is considered in vogue, traditional or "just the way it has always been!" All the philosophies have serious gaps which have been exposed continuously over the last few decades!

[flywise]

I feel like it's a privilege to do business in this country. And there are a few prices to pay, like getting a business license, paying taxes and not discriminating.

Those are just my opinions


Are you conservative or are you libertarian?

So, your libertarianism only goes so far.....I understand.
Its a privilege just being in this country, starting a business is not a privilege, its a risk. Typically taking that risk is with full knowledge what the rules are. But when the gov. Changes those rules when ever they feel like catering to the next social justice warrior coming down the pike it puts even more risk to the owner.
Business should succeed or fail on their ability to perform in the market place not whether or not they can keep up with gov. Social justice mandates.

[XBowHunter]

Libertarians & Conservatives

So, your libertarianism only goes so far.....I understand.

Its a privilege just being in this country, starting a business is not a privilege, its a risk. Typically taking that risk is with full knowledge what the rules are. But when the gov. Changes those rules when ever they feel like catering to the next social justice warrior coming down the pike it puts even more risk to the owner.

Business should succeed or fail on their ability to perform in the market place not whether or not they can keep up with gov. Social justice mandates.

Years ago I could've gone along with businesses making their own decisions. But with the bigotry and division I see in our culture of these days, I'm not sure the American public is trustworthy enough to put bigoted or racist businesses out of business.

And that would lead to segregation not the United States.

So I draw the line when conservatives want to implement policies that could be discriminating to a lot of the population

[flywise]

Years ago I could've gone along with businesses making their own decisions. But with the bigotry and division I see in our culture of these days, I'm not sure the American public is trustworthy enough to put bigoted or racist businesses out of business.

And that would lead to segregation not the United States.

So I draw the line when conservatives want to implement policies that could be discriminating to a lot of the population

You really need to quit blaming everything on Christians and conservatives.
This quote is pure ignorance. Businesses will not be in business if they are raciest or bigoted. Thats the point. You seem to think a large percentage of this American population is living in 1950, well guess what? Its a figment of your liberal imagination.
Refusing to bake a cake is not bigotry, nor is refusing to take photographs, or make a pizza for gay weddings. Liberals love and insist on infringing on a christians rights and then accuse them for trying to force their faith on you.
Its classic liberal socialism , blame them for something you are actually doing

[XBowHunter]

Libertarians & Conservatives

You really need to quit blaming everything on Christians and conservatives.
This quote is pure ignorance. Businesses will not be in business if they are raciest or bigoted. Thats the point. You seem to think a large percentage of this American population is living in 1950, well guess what? Its a figment of your liberal imagination.
Refusing to bake a cake is not bigotry, nor is refusing to take photographs, or make a pizza for gay weddings. Liberals love and insist on infringing on a christians rights and then accuse them for trying to force their faith on you.
Its classic liberal socialism , blame them for something you are actually doing

Should restaurants also be allowed to refuse service to blacks? Muslims?


We as a society have already fought this battle. Get over it. We as a country are not going to allow legal discrimination.

[flywise]

Should restaurants also be allowed to refuse service to blacks? Muslims?


We as a society have already fought this battle. Get over it. We as a country are not going to allow legal discrimination.

Should they be allowed to? No business is going to do that and stay in business.
Im talking about gov. Regulation. You say you want gov. Out of the lives of the American people yet you want gov. to regulate every aspect of business, healthcare, bathrooms and force people to comply with the demand of a gay couples wedding.

[XBowHunter]

Should they be allowed to? No business is going to do that and stay in business.

Im talking about gov. Regulation. You say you want gov. Out of the lives of the American people yet you want gov. to regulate every aspect of business, healthcare, bathrooms and force people to comply with the demand of a gay couples wedding.

I asked you if businesses should be allowed to reject blacks and Muslims? Not whether they stay in business.

Should a cake maker be able to deny business to two blacks? Or Muslims?

I have no doubt there are small towns in rural America where a business could stay in operation with rules such as that. In a larger city they wouldn't last two seconds.

[Ætheling]

Libertarians & Conservatives

We as libertarians will never be able to unite and agree on a candidate then.

I refuse to vote for any candidate that wants to legislate their religious beliefs on the country, and likewise I assume you would not vote for someone who was pro-choice.

By drawing that conclusion, libertarianism has no chance in this country, at least not at uniting social conservatives with libertarians who more closely align with the party platform.

I voted Republican. No way was I voting fir Gary Johnson. Looks like large majority of Libertarians vote Republican.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/libertarian-vote

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