Libertarians & Conservatives

[Ætheling]

Dumping an issue like abortion to "states rights" is a cop out. It's better than federal control but moral issues like this should not be legislated at all. Morality is an individual choice unless the issue infringes on another's rights. Obviously murder infringes on the victims right to life and if a fetus has rights, abortion is murder. Since science cannot answer the question of when a fetus becomes a person with rights, abortion must default to a moral decision made by the two individuals who created the fetus - not a government at any level.

What other amendments to the US Constitution are cop outs? The first? Second?


This is my stance in bold.

[Playa]

Libertarianism is a great concept in philosophy, just like communism is. And just like communism it ignores personal desire which precipitates to greed. The issue with libertarianism is that it expects all individuals to make the right choice, and in the event the wrong choice is made they live with the consequences.

The issue with this, and where libertarianism fails in reality is that personal choices have societal consequences and eventually become a burden to society. This requires governments to intervene on some level and to varying degrees.

For instance, since abortion was brought up. I do not agree with abortion from moral perspective. However, its not my choice and I don't have to face the consequence of the decision of another human being. But, when that human being cannot afford their abortion it leave the state with 2 decisions. A) partially or completely fund the abortion, or B) partially or completely fund the rearing of the unwanted child. You see the impasse we are at in the real world when policies are left solely to the individual to make the "right" choice.

So the reality is that government is required by default to have some intervention. I believe conservatives understand this, and have a desire to minimize the states role.

[txpitdog]

Libertarianism is a great concept in philosophy, just like communism is. And just like communism it ignores personal desire which precipitates to greed. The issue with libertarianism is that it expects all individuals to make the right choice, and in the event the wrong choice is made they live with the consequences.

The issue with this, and where libertarianism fails in reality is that personal choices have societal consequences and eventually become a burden to society. This requires governments to intervene on some level and to varying degrees.

So, because not everyone will make the right choice, the government should take the choice away? Hmmm, where have I heard that before...



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[Ætheling]

So, because not everyone will make the right choice, the government should take the choice away? Hmmm, where have I heard that before...



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"Safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils... Go back to sleep"

I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from a will to survive and a voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and your choices, son.
They're one in the same.
I must isolate you.
Isolate and save you from yourself.
Sleep.
Sleep.
Sleep.

[Playa]

So, because not everyone will make the right choice, the government should take the choice away? Hmmm, where have I heard that before...



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I didn't say government should take the choice away. I said government has a choice to make, A or B.

You should read the entirety of a post before responding.... oh wait, you just quoted and ignored the rest of the post...

[twobittxn]

If we consider 1.9 to be important, why do so many people get upset that a private property owner (business owner) does not want you to carry a weapon openly or concealed on their private property.

[txpitdog]

"Safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils... Go back to sleep"



I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and all your demons.

I'll be the one to protect you from a will to survive and a voice of reason.

I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and your choices, son.

They're one in the same.

I must isolate you.

Isolate and save you from yourself.

Sleep.

Sleep.

Sleep.

[emoji6][emoji1303]. Maynard speaketh the truth

[XBowHunter]

Dumping an issue like abortion to "states rights" is a cop out. It's better than federal control but moral issues like this should not be legislated at all. Morality is an individual choice unless the issue infringes on another's rights. Obviously murder infringes on the victims right to life and if a fetus has rights, abortion is murder. Since science cannot answer the question of when a fetus becomes a person with rights, abortion must default to a moral decision made by the two individuals who created the fetus - not a government at any level.

Agreed

[XBowHunter]

I think we can all agree on 1.9 though!

Ok

[txpitdog]

I didn't say government should take the choice away. I said government has a choice to make, A or B.

You should read the entirety of a post before responding.... oh wait, you just quoted and ignored the rest of the post...

I read it but your point was made in the first section. It sounds like you believe that it is the role of the government to eliminate personal freedom when that government decides the people are not capable of making the choice it has determined to be "right". That ain't conservative, that's due south on the chart.

[XBowHunter]

I read it but your point was made in the first section. It sounds like you believe that it is the role of the government to eliminate personal freedom when that government decides the people are not capable of making the choice it has determined to be "right". That ain't conservative, that's due south on the chart.

Thank you, that is where conservatism strays for me.

[jerp]

As someone who has a deep interest in political philosophy, I had a long (and ultimately boring) response typed out but I decided to spare everyone and just pass along a few resources I have found helpful when studying libertarianism.
The first is the Cato Institute www.Cato.org - long the vanguard of intellectual libertarian thought. The other is Reason magazine. www.Reason.com

I go to both of these sites to read opinions from that end of the political spectrum regarding events of the day. Note that I am talking about "small l " libertarianism - the philosophy, not the political party. The best description of the Libertarian Party is when one of their leaders said - "our party is a big tent - but it's a big circus tent"

[treestand]

What other amendments to the US Constitution are cop outs? The first? Second?


This is my stance in bold.

I don't understand what you are saying wrt constitutional amendments and cop-outs. Not one amendment deals with a moral issue.

Oftentimes people suggest an issue should be decided by the state's simply because they believe that leaving it to individuals wouldn't have enough support in Congress to make it happen. Leaving it to the states becomes the practical alternative but that doesn't make it the best alternative.

I too am opposed to abortion but since I know that I cannot know when life actually begins, I respect the belief that some hold which says life legally begins at birth.

[XBowHunter]

Note that I am talking about "small l " libertarianism - the philosophy, not the political party.

How do you see the philosophy differently than the political party?

[Ætheling]

I don't understand what you are saying wrt constitutional amendments and cop-outs. Not one amendment deals with a moral issue.

Oftentimes people suggest an issue should be decided by the state's simply because they believe that leaving it to individuals wouldn't have enough support in Congress to make it happen. Leaving it to the states becomes the practical alternative but that doesn't make it the best alternative.

I too am opposed to abortion but since I know that I cannot know when life actually begins, I respect the belief that some hold which says life legally begins at birth.

In reference to you stating that the states rights argument as a cop out. States rights are expressly guaranteed in the Bill of Rights under the 10th amendment. I don't understand how its a cop out.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"