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    #76
    Originally posted by Jake View Post
    Most of the argument is correct, but not all. Being on many differant ranches in Texas several times a week for many years, there are ranches that have drastically increased the antler size of deer by shooting all inferior deer and leaving the largest antlered deer.
    This can not be done on most ranches due to the limitations described in the article. Shooting just a few culls and a few trophy's from a small place with neighbors that hunt will never move the needle.
    On a large low fence place, under MLD, with hunters that have a good plan and can age, judge, lay down and clean a lot of deer; and most of all can let the good ones walk, can make a huge change in a short time. I have been on a ranch that increased the average score of the 5yo deer by over 35 points in just 5 years. It takes a lot of variables to come together. I agree it can't be done on most places, but when done right it can make a drastic change quickly.
    Just take a small town and kill every male over 20 years old who is under 6'4 and make all the remaining males breed every woman in the town for 3 generations. The average height of the men would be much taller after 3 generations. Luckily with deer 3 generations happens in a very short time. Some tall males will move away. Some short males will move in and be shot and not allowed to breed. End results will be taller people.

    Again, most ranches and leases can't do enough to make a real change, but it can be done, I have seen it many times.
    Hunting is suppose to be fun, so don't get so caught up in the size of the deer, but enjoy the experience. Most of my life I have had a great time hunting small deer.
    You do realize that the bigger 5 year olds were already born when they started right?


    Year 1 1.5 Years Old

    Year 2 2.5

    Year 3 3.5

    Year 4 4.5

    Year 5 5.5

    This is the kind of stuff that people just need to think through before they claim to have evidence of a genetic shift.

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      #77

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        #78
        I often wonder if improvement in herd quality is attributed to a change in genetics when in actuality it’s just a positive response to mgt particularly nutrition and creating an environment where full expression of the genetic potential already present

        I am unaware of any scientific research verifying culling changes genetics. If anyone is aware of such research it would be great to post for us all.

        I am aware of research where there was extensive purposeful culling for years eliminating certain genetic traits. However once the culling stopped within a few years the ‘undesirable’ traits returned with the same statistical frequency as before culling was initiated. This was on the Comanche ranch best I recall .

        There has been significant scientific study verifying improved nutrition improves genetic expression over time thru epigenetic responses to the environment.

        There has been extensive research showing many...most..deer herds are on inadequate nutrition to fully express there genetic potential.

        With all that for most management situations it makes all the sense to remove lessor quality deer from the herd and let the better bucks age. At the same time do everything possible to enhance the nutritional plane. This includes population control of which culling is a part, improved feed sources such as pellets, food plots, habitat manipulation etc. Many of us do these things with predictable improvements in top end quality as well as the entire bell curve improving

        Have we really changed the genetics or simply allowed full expression of the genetic potential already present? Does it matter? A simple test is to stop culling , let nutrition revert back to pre management levels and observe the outcome.
        Last edited by elgato; 05-16-2018, 03:05 PM.

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          #79
          Originally posted by elgato View Post
          I often wonder if improvement in herd quality is attributed to a change in genetics when in actuality it’s just a positive response to mgt particularly nutrition and creating an environment where full expression of the genetic potential already present

          I am unaware of any scientific research verifying culling changes genetics. If anyone is aware of such research it would be great to post for us all.

          I am aware of research where there was extensive purposeful culling for years eliminating certain genetic traits. However once the culling stopped within a few years the ‘undesirable’ traits returned with the same statistical frequency as before culling was initiated. This was on the Comanche ranch best I recall .

          There has been significant scientific study verifying improved nutrition improves genetic expression over time thru epigenetic responses to the environment.

          There has been extensive research showing many...most..deer herds are on inadequate nutrition to fully express there genetic potential.

          With all that for most management situations it makes all the sense to remove lessor quality deer from the herd and let the better bucks age. At the same time do everything possible to enhance the nutritional plane. This includes population control of which culling is a part, improved feed sources such as pellets, food plots, habitat manipulation etc. Many of us do these things with predictable improvements in top end quality as well as the entire bell curve improving

          Have we really changed the genetics or simply allowed full expression of the genetic potential already present? Does it matter? A simple test is to stop culling , let nutrition revert back to pre management levels and observe the outcome.

          I agree totally and as I stated several times - there is a difference in changing genetics versus enhancing/manipulating them - other than culling the feed program, age, water access, good habitat, etc. all contribute to creating a healthy herd of deer that produces top end bucks - culling is just one tool IMO

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by Encinal View Post
            You do realize that the bigger 5 year olds were already born when they started right?


            Year 1 1.5 Years Old

            Year 2 2.5

            Year 3 3.5

            Year 4 4.5

            Year 5 5.5

            This is the kind of stuff that people just need to think through before they claim to have evidence of a genetic shift.
            You do realize that after the intense culling started, very few of the already born deer ever made it to 5yo. Thus the few that made it to 5yo were much bigger than the 5yo from five years previous.
            As I said in my previous post, and has been said by many people on this thread, no one is claiming to have changed the genetics, but many believe you can manipulate the herd.


            This is the kind of stuff that people just need to think through before they Make claims.

            Comment


              #81
              Most people are claiming you can change genetics.

              It’s exactly what you said after 3 generations.

              Problem is the claims you are making coincide with other management practices that cause antlers to get bigger ... so you falsely attribute your observation to shooting work.

              Comment


                #82
                Great link

                Comment


                  #83
                  Originally posted by Encinal View Post
                  Most people are claiming you can change genetics.

                  It’s exactly what you said after 3 generations.

                  Problem is the claims you are making coincide with other management practices that cause antlers to get bigger ... so you falsely attribute your observation to shooting work.
                  Let me ask you a question. If herds cannot be manipulated by culling, why are deer so much bigger now?

                  Oh, pen raised deer. Pen raised deer is just making sure that superior genetic deer breed with other superior genetic deer. Which have fawns with superior genetics.

                  If genetics cannot be manipulated, what are we doing with all these 400 inch deer? We did not start with two 400 inch deer and bred them to make a 400 inch deer. Over time we just took out the bad deer and made sure the elite deer only bred with other elite deer.

                  Proof is in the pudding. There are thousands of ranches in Texas that have deer dramatically bigger than 40 years ago. They have not feed them any different, they have not introduced new deer of any kind. They have just culled the bad ones and left the good ones to bred.

                  Just look back at the history of Los Cazadores low fence category over the last 35 years to see how much bigger deer are in Texas.

                  Obviously shooting the bad ones and leaving the good ones has worked. That is what you call culling. Looking at the growth of the antler size of deer in Texas, you cannot rationally argue that culling properly does not increase the size of deer antlers.

                  With that said, most agree that culling properly is very hard and does not work on many ranches in Texas, due to size of property, limited tags and neighbors who shoot everything.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Originally posted by Jake View Post
                    Let me ask you a question. If herds cannot be manipulated by culling, why are deer so much bigger now?

                    Oh, pen raised deer. Pen raised deer is just making sure that superior genetic deer breed with other superior genetic deer. Which have fawns with superior genetics.

                    If genetics cannot be manipulated, what are we doing with all these 400 inch deer? We did not start with two 400 inch deer and bred them to make a 400 inch deer. Over time we just took out the bad deer and made sure the elite deer only bred with other elite deer.

                    Proof is in the pudding. There are thousands of ranches in Texas that have deer dramatically bigger than 40 years ago. They have not feed them any different, they have not introduced new deer of any kind. They have just culled the bad ones and left the good ones to bred.

                    Just look back at the history of Los Cazadores low fence category over the last 35 years to see how much bigger deer are in Texas.

                    Obviously shooting the bad ones and leaving the good ones has worked. That is what you call culling. Looking at the growth of the antler size of deer in Texas, you cannot rationally argue that culling properly does not increase the size of deer antlers.

                    With that said, most agree that culling properly is very hard and does not work on many ranches in Texas, due to size of property, limited tags and neighbors who shoot everything.
                    Protein Feed and trail camera aging have accounted for nearly 100% of the antler size increase on low fence SoTX the last 30 years. Antler restrictions and deer aging education have helped the rest of the state immensely as well.

                    And you can’t double speak. You can’t say thousands of ranches have bigger deer from culling, then say culling is hard and can’t be done correctly on many ranches.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by Encinal View Post
                      Protein Feed and trail camera aging have accounted for nearly 100% of the antler size increase on low fence SoTX the last 30 years. Antler restrictions and deer aging education have helped the rest of the state immensely as well.

                      And you can’t double speak. You can’t say thousands of ranches have bigger deer from culling, then say culling is hard and can’t be done correctly on many ranches.
                      Double speak?

                      There are probably well over 100,000 ranches in Texas. So to say that thousands, maybe 2 or 3 thousand ranches have much bigger deer and have not introduced new genetics or any supplementle feed and still have much bigger deer is a fact. That would still leave 97% of ranches not able to see results of culling due to the limitations discussed on this thread.

                      Just to be clear on your statement 100% of growth of antler size on low fence Texas ranches over the years is due to feed, age and trail cams.

                      But growth on high fence ranches is due to those factors and breeding big deer with other big deer.

                      But culling, leaving big deer to breed and shooting bad deer, does not work.

                      Then I just don't understand how all these giant deer got to these Texas ranches.

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by Jake View Post
                        Double speak?

                        There are probably well over 100,000 ranches in Texas. So to say that thousands, maybe 2 or 3 thousand ranches have much bigger deer and have not introduced new genetics or any supplementle feed and still have much bigger deer is a fact. That would still leave 97% of ranches not able to see results of culling due to the limitations discussed on this thread.

                        Just to be clear on your statement 100% of growth of antler size on low fence Texas ranches over the years is due to feed, age and trail cams.

                        But growth on high fence ranches is due to those factors and breeding big deer with other big deer.

                        But culling, leaving big deer to breed and shooting bad deer, does not work.

                        Then I just don't understand how all these giant deer got to these Texas ranches.
                        It certainly has an impact if you are actively breeding deer... for those deer’s offspring... and an even bigger impact when you breed back over and over again.

                        That’s impossible in low fence and normal high fence settings. People that aren’t putting their hands on deer aren’t having a noticeable genetic impact on their deer herd.

                        Also... you implied South Texas by using Cazadores. There aren’t 100,000 ranches in South Texas.
                        Last edited by Encinal; 05-18-2018, 08:47 AM.

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                          #87
                          you cannot see genetics. What you can see is the effects of environment. Genetics are not as simple as a 4 square punnett square. Horn growth is not just one or two genes. It is complex. Big horns dont always mean that deer will produce big horned offspring. Then you take the doe into account which contributes at minimum half of the genetic makeup of the offspring.

                          What we can see and control is population balance, food, water, cover and space. If we give our deer the best environment to live in, the best food and keep our overall numbers under the holding capacity of our land and keep the age and sex structure correct in our herd we will produce great deer.

                          If we have too many bucks then take some bucks out. However they are not "cull" bucks in the sense that by taking them out you are not doing anything to change genetic makeup, you are limiting mouths to feed and keeping your age structure in check.

                          Personally I would not take any buck until 4.5 years old and at that point if you want to take some of the smaller 4.5 year olds and let the larger ones get to 5 or 6 great.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Dr. Harry Jacobson had a buck in his pens at Ms. State...Charlie was his name though don't trust my memory.....that at the time had sired most of the biggest bucks in the country. He was a legend and many breeders bought his off spring. Whats interesting is that the buck was just an 'average' 150" class 8 pt most of his life.Yes, genetics are a complex matrix especially when you consider how few legitimate clues we have from only observation of antlers and no insight into the mother.

                            I continue to propose that enhanced nutrition is the reason we have seen the dramatic increase in deer quality from the early days of buck mania . Culling does contribute to that.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Funny how there is always two sides on all topics and people have made up their mind and they are not changing it. I rarely get pulled into these back and forth discussions, I just have seen the results of proper culling.
                              At the end of the day, I am a fan of all hunters and think deer hunting needs to be more about the experience and less about the size of antlers.

                              Of the many ranches I have been on over the years. Everyone that consistantly produces big deer has some sort of culling program for what they call an inferior deer on their ranch.
                              If allowing the best deer to breed and not allowing the subpar deer to breed, did not manipulate the herd, then Texas would not have so many ranches with deer that scored over 250.

                              But if you don't agree, we can still be buddies.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Deer and Deer hunting magazine in the current issue just posted an article on culling. Interesting read with significant scientific literature quoted.

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