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File knife without annealing

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    #31
    Well you **** sure make a quality knife, thanks for your input.

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      #32
      Originally posted by chopsknives View Post
      Not to hijack a thread but if you heat till red hot actually goin on the back side toward orange and then quickly bury deeply in ashes and let cool for 8 hours you will have an annealed pc of steel. Now do all your grinding and drilling and filework. Then simply take a torch with a bloom and heat the larger areas of the blade first to draw the heat away from the heat sinks created by the tip being thinner and the sudden drop in thickness from the Choil to the plunge and slowly work the heat around until you get an even red to orange hue - take a speaker and clamp it face down on a table so you can drag the blade across the magnet to see when it becomes nonmagnetic at this point run the temp up about 2- 300 degrees more as when you leave the flame to when you quench your going to lose a couple of hundred degrees then ease the tip in first and slide the knife into the quench solution being careful not to move the tip around too much. Hold it in the quench for about 2 min and then wipe off excess oil and let set for a few min then submerse in a mix of dry ice and acetone slush for 5 1/2 hours after that let it sit for 8 hrs. (Kevin and I have a diff of opinion on this part but am willing to go mono a mono with him anytime) After the quench process is done let sit for a few hours to stabilize the steel and start the temper I like to do a triple draw temper after the first temper I like to drop the Temperature five degrees each time so no conflict comes between the first and hardness setting temper. I would never try to grind a tempered knife but that's just me once tempered a knife can only take so much abuse before the blade degrades
      Sam is going to read that and say well I'm going to heat it with a torch and dip it in oil

      While I have no doubt that what you described is a far superior process. Some of us...well...aren't custom knife smiths. What we make needs to be functional and not too painful to look at it.

      Regardless, I also appreciate the information. Knowledge is power.

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        #33
        Originally posted by LeanMachine View Post
        Sam is going to read that and say well I'm going to heat it with a torch and dip it in oil
        He speaks the truth. You lost me at "dry ice and acetone."

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          #34
          Originally posted by LeanMachine View Post
          Sam is going to read that and say well I'm going to heat it with a torch and dip it in oil

          While I have no doubt that what you described is a far superior process. Some of us...well...aren't custom knife smiths. What we make needs to be functional and not too painful to look at it.

          Regardless, I also appreciate the information. Knowledge is power.
          Quench solution IS oil and for the best free oil go to a fish fry house and get there canola oil - works great and smells yummy and it's FREE

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            #35
            Dry Ice and Acetone slurry will take carbon steel past the RA nose (Retained Austenite) on carbon steel you can add 2 points Rockwell by dropping the quench to -100 degrees this will also add it without adding ANY brittleness to the steel dry ice goes to -110 . This is called sub zero quenching - wont work on stainless alloys as you need to reach - 380 degrees to cross the Ra nose so you have to use liquid nitrogen which is -420 degrees and is called Cryogenic quenching. Since this is part of the quenching process you'll either need to do this right away after oil quench or do a snap tenper of 350 degrees for 1 hour to stabilized but should still be done within 8 hrs. Then after that you'll want to wait a few hours to stabilize before tempering to prevent pearlite formations

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              #36
              I like to keep my quench oil at 80-120 degrees any cooler and the tip will warp or worse the blade will bacon!!!! If your goin to do a hamon by sliding the edge athrough the quench just be careful as it flames up sometimes!!

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                #37
                Chopsknives, you need to write a book or do a youtube video and explain all this in debate. Most books on knife making (or anything else) never go into enough detail. Seeing the details might make your procedure seem a little less intimidating.

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                  #38
                  Turns out there are more than one Kevin Smith and since this Kevin Smith isn't the one who started a bunch of S*** with me on Handmade Knifemakers on facedbook it seems I owe him an apology and will have the ol'lady fix me up a dish of crow!!! I did give yall some good pointers (IMHO) But nonetheless offer my humble apology!! Sorry KEV

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                    #39
                    Thanks Tim.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by chopsknives View Post
                      I like to keep my quench oil at 80-120 degrees any cooler and the tip will warp or worse the blade will bacon!!!! If your goin to do a hamon by sliding the edge athrough the quench just be careful as it flames up sometimes!!
                      And don't forget to keep an eye on your temperature of the your quenching oil; 2 times this month during the normalizing process I looked down and it was at 160 or higher.... Then it's time unplug my pot and sit and wait until it cools to temp. (makes me feel like a dummy)

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Bjankowski View Post
                        And don't forget to keep an eye on your temperature of the your quenching oil; 2 times this month during the normalizing process I looked down and it was at 160 or higher.... Then it's time unplug my pot and sit and wait until it cools to temp. (makes me feel like a dummy)
                        Now ifin we're gonna start the dummy list I'm afraid I've got a FEW to add there!! I really like it when during hollowgrinding /I fail to notice the masking tape around my index fingers just happens to be on fire!!

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                          #42
                          Speaking of hamons, the idea of heat treating with a torch got me to thinking about using some clay or something on the back of the blade, heat the edge, and quenching to see if I can get a hamon.

                          But I'm curious about something. Whenever I've tempered a knife and it turns amber, or when I annealed the handle on the above knife and created that rainbow colour, the colours are only on the surface. A little sanding makes them go away. Is the same thing true with a hamon? Isn't a hamon just a difference in colour? If so, how is it visible after you finish up the knife by sanding it?

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                            #43
                            You acid etch it to make it more pronounced and you sand your blade to 400# before heat treat

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by chopsknives View Post
                              take a speaker and clamp it face down on a table so you can drag the blade across the magnet to see when it becomes nonmagnetic at this point run the temp up about 2- 300 degrees more. . .
                              How can you tell it's 2 - 300 degrees hotter? Does it turn fully orange? Doesn't that cause the grain to grow excessively?

                              I would never try to grind a tempered knife but that's just me once tempered a knife can only take so much abuse before the blade degrades
                              That is interesting. Pretty much everybody else has been telling me that I should leave a little thickness on the edge when I heat treat, then grind it the rest of the way after heat treating it. Do you grind it until you have an edge before heat treating? Or how thick do you leave your edge when you heat treat?

                              By the way, I was just looking at your web page, and DANG! Your knives are so sweet, I've got cavities in my eyes from looking at them.

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                                #45
                                Nice knife Sam, and a really interesting thread to follow.

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