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    #76
    Originally posted by Aggie PhD View Post
    This is spot on. Genetic drift and random selection of genes in a low fence population are factors that will overwhelm any effects of "genetic selection" through hunter harvests.............
    bingo.

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      #77
      Then what's the reason for shooting spikes?

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        #78
        Originally posted by jb5001 View Post
        Then what's the reason for shooting spikes?
        Concession to landowner's to make AR's an easier sell, even though shooting spikes is generally stupid and the AR's were needed anyway.

        I wish they'd just make it 1 buck and scrap the spike deal. That's my beef with the antler restriction program.

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          #79
          Originally posted by IkemanTX View Post
          What is more likely the case is that hunters who are highly concerned with management practices are more likely to make improvements on food availability, buck/doe ratios, and overall age structures within the herd (all of which ARE in a manager’s control) which in Turn improves the overall antler quality of the bucks observed. These much larger contributions to herd health often get overlooked as the reason for improvement, and credit is unduly given to “cull” programs.


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          This.

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            #80
            Originally posted by MagicBlade View Post
            Most of the bucks on our lease are under 13" even older bucks.
            Although a lot are young, the question came up this last week as to what is the purpose of the Antler Restriction rule.

            Is it to improve quantity or quality of the deer herd?

            If an older deer is under 13" and continues to breed, won't the genetics continue to be under 13"??????
            To answer the OP's question, the 13" rule is designed to keep Bubba and Cletus off the trigger. Many years ago, in the dark days before antler restrictions, I was on a lease in southwest Jack County. Opening morning sounded like the D-Day invasion of Normandy. When you got into town, you saw lots of very young deer being offloaded. Everyone got their buck. Many were the first hard-antlered deer to appear that morning! People just were not shooting mature deer. They were shooting year-and-a-half old deer. One opening morning, I saw two guys dropping off deer. One was a 4-point; the other a 6-point. Neither was more than 1.5 years old. Why did they shoot these deer?

            The 13" rule is a proxy for age. Is it perfect? No. Is it very good? Yes. Sure, there are mature deer that don't go and won't ever go 13", but they are few and far between. Most people who claim to be overrun with these deer really don't know how to age deer or are only now seeing 2.5 and 3.5 year old deer due to antler restrictions.

            LWD

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              #81
              Sad thing is now they are shooting nice 2yo bucks just barely legal. Lol! But I definitely agree it is definitely better than before. Just wish on these small easttexas tracks of land we could let them get even a few more years on them somehow.

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                #82
                Originally posted by jb5001 View Post
                Then what's the reason for shooting spikes?
                Originally posted by Etxbuckman View Post
                Concession to landowner's to make AR's an easier sell,
                Bingo, I agree it doesn't make complete sense but I like the idea of having the option of taking a spike as a meat deer if I want to and have done it a three times since they started the AR here in 2006, all different counties though.

                Originally posted by LWD View Post
                Most people who claim to be overrun with these deer really don't know how to age deer or are only now seeing 2.5 and 3.5 year old deer due to antler restrictions.

                LWD
                Bingo again
                Last edited by bossbowman; 12-13-2017, 10:02 PM.

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by etxbuckman View Post
                  concession to landowner's to make ar's an easier sell, even though shooting spikes is generally stupid and the ar's were needed anyway.

                  I wish they'd just make it 1 buck and scrap the spike deal. That's my beef with the antler restriction program.
                  this !

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                    #84
                    Originally posted by dustoffer View Post
                    The quality of the bucks here in Guadalupe County has gone up substantially on the place I hunt since ARs were enacted. What used to be a parade of spikes and little cabbage racks is no more--
                    I hunt 4 different counties. All have benefited greatly.

                    Everyone has a different definition of what a mature deer is and/or can't age deer well. I have family that believes a 2 or 3 year old is mature. This is because where they hunt anything with antlers was always shot. Now they complain that their mature deer don't meet restrictions. They send me pics and I tell the deer they are sending a 2 or 3. Not saying this is the case here. Just saying.

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                      #85
                      Originally posted by Etxbuckman View Post
                      I've always been perplexed by the meat hunters who admit to gladly passing a doe and happily shoot a young buck.



                      A lot of guys I know would rather shoot an ugly mature buck than a younger one with a better rack. Personally I'm glad it's just one buck 13"+ that's allowed. Otherwise you'd have too many guys taking liberties with deer they ought not to.
                      Give me an old ugly bruiser every time. Let the young bucks walk, eat, breed and grow. I don't care what they look like at 3. Because if they make it to 5 they will be that much better. I agree. One 13+ per county is fair.

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                        #86
                        My son and the neighbors shot all the legal bucks this year in our area. I have been watching older narrow bucks chase and breed does lately. Hopefully some of the does got bred before the wide bucks were shot.

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                          #87
                          Originally posted by Ruttin&Struttin View Post
                          Give me an old ugly bruiser every time.
                          Me too. I've got a buck I've been after for 2 seasons now that won't score worth squat- and he's ugly as hell- but I swear he must've come over on the land bridge during the last ice age. I wanna get him just for that reason.

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                            #88
                            Originally posted by stinkbelly View Post
                            My son and the neighbors shot all the legal bucks this year in our area. I have been watching older narrow bucks chase and breed does lately. Hopefully some of the does got bred before the wide bucks were shot.
                            This is the problem I'm seeing in my area. If it makes 13" it gets dropped. While we have a problem with bad genetics of TALL narrow racks. With anything that is 13" or wide is being shot this leaves only the narrow rack genetics bucks to bread. I'm on the stand now and just watched a big 7pt that needs to be taken out but he's about 12 1/2 ". This is just my opinion but here in the piney woods wear I hunt it is thick. I think the deer have adapted to this and are growing taller. Many years ago before the AR law my dad shot a 13pt off of one of my stands that was 12 3/4" inside. The dog catcher's where 13" long one of the tallest rack I have seen. He was aged at 6 1/2 years old. Today it wouldn't be a legal deer.

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                              #89
                              Originally posted by DCT View Post
                              This is the problem I'm seeing in my area. If it makes 13" it gets dropped. While we have a problem with bad genetics of TALL narrow racks. With anything that is 13" or wide is being shot this leaves only the narrow rack genetics bucks to bread. I'm on the stand now and just watched a big 7pt that needs to be taken out but he's about 12 1/2 ". This is just my opinion but here in the piney woods wear I hunt it is thick. I think the deer have adapted to this and are growing taller. Many years ago before the AR law my dad shot a 13pt off of one of my stands that was 12 3/4" inside. The dog catcher's where 13" long one of the tallest rack I have seen. He was aged at 6 1/2 years old. Today it wouldn't be a legal deer.
                              This is what most of the deer on our lease looks like just not this wide. I have watched two 8pts that looks just like this deer this year but are not the 13" inside. This is one my daughter took about two years ago.
                              Attached Files

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                                #90
                                Sorry for the sideways picture. I don't know why my phone always does it this way.

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