More Culling Info

[bukkskin]

Lol, well the three biologists we have used also agree with this. They also said this.

If I was given the best nutrition in the world, I still wouldn't be 6'5" because it's not in my genetic makeup, but I can be a pretty good looking 5'11". So nutrition is important but genetics determine the most. However, it also is a bell curve just like anything and everything else. Remove the far left end of the bell curve, and it shifts. Pretty simple logic.

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Poor "little" Danny must not have had a never empty pellet feeder.

[WamBow]

Great discussion! As a meat hunter I don't only desire the big antlers. I'm looking for good venison and time outdoors. That said, if a buck with a big rack walked into range I'd not hesitate to kill and harvest. The "improving genetics" discussion probably needs some philosophy applied. Is good genetic based on the hunters preference or the deers superiority in the breed? I've seen 6 points kick the poop out of big 10points because of how the tines are positioned and the agressive attitude level of each buck. Typically we're talking about antler size when discussing superior genetics. The deer just don't see it that way. I've also seen an "inferior" antlered buck one year sprout a huge rack the next year because the pervious year he sustained an injury during growth season. I only hunt low fence because that's what's available and have found the antler restrictions are working for the most part. There are cases of old narrow spread antlered bucks not being "culled" but mostly seeing more mature bucks and more 8points making it to 3 or 4 year status, as far as I can tell, as a result. The longer doe season is helping as well I think. I've had the pleasure to hunt high fence ranches for "management bucks" and that's a totally different ball game because there is far more control of not only the deer population but other predators like coyotes and wildlife that might compete with WT for food (no goats!). So to argue genetics managment between low fence and high fence will get you nowhere because they're just too different.

[bukkskin]

Great discussion! As a meat hunter I don't only desire the big antlers. I'm looking for good venison and time outdoors. That said, if a buck with a big rack walked into range I'd not hesitate to kill and harvest. The "improving genetics" discussion probably needs some philosophy applied. Is good genetic based on the hunters preference or the deers superiority in the breed? I've seen 6 points kick the poop out of big 10points because of how the tines are positioned and the agressive attitude level of each buck. Typically we're talking about antler size when discussing superior genetics. The deer just don't see it that way. I've also seen an "inferior" antlered buck one year sprout a huge rack the next year because the pervious year he sustained an injury during growth season. I only hunt low fence because that's what's available and have found the antler restrictions are working for the most part. There are cases of old narrow spread antlered bucks not being "culled" but mostly seeing more mature bucks and more 8points making it to 3 or 4 year status, as far as I can tell, as a result. The longer doe season is helping as well I think. I've had the pleasure to hunt high fence ranches for "management bucks" and that's a totally different ball game because there is far more control of not only the deer population but other predators like coyotes and wildlife that might compete with WT for food (no goats!). So to argue genetics managment between low fence and high fence will get you nowhere because they're just too different.

Agreed
We kill narrow, short tined, short beamed deer. They usually have decent mass and good brows.
These are the bucks that will get on the inside of our good bucks in a fight.
Their antlers fit inside the "pretty" deers antlers. Once they start removing eyes, the bigger buck will usually take off and the crap deer(to us anyways) gets the doe.

[bukkskin]

Who are these "experts" you speak of?

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QDMA leaders that are hell bent on smeering and ending deer breeding, for their (and the King, Bass and Kenedy Ranches) survival and Prosperity!!!

[Cull hunter]

I've seen it work on high and low fence ranches. Does it ever end---no. I think it helps to improve the top end even though you will always have the less desire able deer.

[txwhitetail]

I’ll stick to killing bucks I don’t like and you guys continue to feed them lol.

[TKK]

I have read many of this same type of thread. Seems there is a group focused on "you cannot change the genetics of a deer herd". With that I agree.

There is another group who states they are not trying to change the genetics - they instead are trying to limit/restrict the breeding of the bad genetics in a herd. Huge difference between the two.

So for me culling has nothing to do with CHANGING genetics - all species, including humans, have different genetics. We are all a result of our parents, grandparents, etc. Tall humans versus short humans. Blond hair humans versus red hair humans. It is the same with deer.

If the "better" genetics are allowed to live and grow and breed and the "lesser" genetics are taken out of the equation, then there has to be an impact on the off spring over time.

[Mexico]

I have read many of this same type of thread. Seems there is a group focused on "you cannot change the genetics of a deer herd". With that I agree.

There is another group who states they are not trying to change the genetics - they instead are trying to limit/restrict the breeding of the bad genetics in a herd. Huge difference between the two.

So for me culling has nothing to do with CHANGING genetics - all species, including humans, have different genetics. We are all a result of our parents, grandparents, etc. Tall humans versus short humans. Blond hair humans versus red hair humans. It is the same with deer.

If the "better" genetics are allowed to live and grow and breed and the "lesser" genetics are taken out of the equation, then there has to be an impact on the off spring over time.

If you're high fenced absolutely, but low fence it'll never happen. I spent several hours discussing the same topic with Dr. Kroll just this December. Through his studies which they've spent thousands doing it takes 12 years just to turn the corner on less desirable deer in HF. In LF they never altered genetics at all. The bell curve never shifted.

These are not my opinions, but factual statements I can back up with my links with many different biologist. I wish it were that easy to alter genetics, but if that was the case there wouldn't be a cull buck in Texas.

[txwhitetail]

If you're high fenced absolutely, but low fence it'll never happen. I spent several hours discussing the same topic with Dr. Kroll just this December. Through his studies which they've spent thousands doing it takes 12 years just to turn the corner on less desirable deer in HF. In LF they never altered genetics at all. The bell curve never shifted.

These are not my opinions, but factual statements I can back up with my links with many different biologist. I wish it were that easy to alter genetics, but if that was the case there wouldn't be a cull buck in Texas.

Plenty of reasons there are culls in Texas. One big one being the top end of most leases is shot off every year. Leaving lots of less than desireables doing more breeding.

[Encinal]

Plenty of reasons there are culls in Texas. One big one being the top end of most leases is shot off every year. Leaving lots of less than desireables doing more breeding.

There will always be less than desireables... antler size falls on a curve in every deer herd...

[WItoTX]

Who are these "experts" you speak of? You can't change a deers genetics, but you can modify/improve the genetic profile of your deer herd. If you killed all the short people in a city, do you think the majority of babies made by only tall people will be tall or short?

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Right, but your comparing apples and oranges. You analogy in this case is correct if you only killed the tall males in a city.

And yes, there would still be short babies. Both from bad genetics, inability to kill all the short males (Because some would hide), migration of short males back into the city, and poor nutrition.

[txwhitetail]

There will always be less than desireables... antler size falls on a curve in every deer herd...

Yep until the end of time.

[bukkskin]

Point is, they aren’t the same. I don’t share Other folks’ hostility towards the existence or the practice of breeding. My animus is exclusively reserved for those folks who irresponsibly move deer.

Trying to put them in a category they don’t deserve to share with other deer is just annoyingly dishonest, and I know you’ve worded your posts just to for that purpose since you consider us “haters” to stir the pot. No sweat. What I’m not sure of though is if you actually are observant enough of your own animals to be able to tell (and being intentionally misleading) or just not that observant.

Well ,you should focus your energy on people that illegally transport untested and unaccounted for deer. Not the everyday hard working law abiding breeder.

I didn't post anything to stir a pot. I just semi- agreed with the original post. I agreed that on low fence places it could take forever. Now high fenced places like yours, where you can control movement and keep any neighbors from killing any of "your" young deer, it is much different.
Where you are going to see a Huge difference, is high fenced ranches with Superior(I mean different) genetics brought in. They can be pure Texas if anyone wishes.
I apologize if I compared the two( I don't recall doing that, but if you say so) because I agree with you, there is no comparison.

I was just giving my opinion and an option for folks that think genetics matter and want to improve their antler quality.

[Jake]

Most of the argument is correct, but not all. Being on many differant ranches in Texas several times a week for many years, there are ranches that have drastically increased the antler size of deer by shooting all inferior deer and leaving the largest antlered deer.
This can not be done on most ranches due to the limitations described in the article. Shooting just a few culls and a few trophy's from a small place with neighbors that hunt will never move the needle.
On a large low fence place, under MLD, with hunters that have a good plan and can age, judge, lay down and clean a lot of deer; and most of all can let the good ones walk, can make a huge change in a short time. I have been on a ranch that increased the average score of the 5yo deer by over 35 points in just 5 years. It takes a lot of variables to come together. I agree it can't be done on most places, but when done right it can make a drastic change quickly.
Just take a small town and kill every male over 20 years old who is under 6'4 and make all the remaining males breed every woman in the town for 3 generations. The average height of the men would be much taller after 3 generations. Luckily with deer 3 generations happens in a very short time. Some tall males will move away. Some short males will move in and be shot and not allowed to breed. End results will be taller people.

Again, most ranches and leases can't do enough to make a real change, but it can be done, I have seen it many times.
Hunting is suppose to be fun, so don't get so caught up in the size of the deer, but enjoy the experience. Most of my life I have had a great time hunting small deer.

[TKK]

Most of the argument is correct, but not all. Being on many differant ranches in Texas several times a week for many years, there are ranches that have drastically increased the antler size of deer by shooting all inferior deer and leaving the largest antlered deer.
This can not be done on most ranches due to the limitations described in the article. Shooting just a few culls and a few trophy's from a small place with neighbors that hunt will never move the needle.
On a large low fence place, under MLD, with hunters that have a good plan and can age, judge, lay down and clean a lot of deer; and most of all can let the good ones walk, can make a huge change in a short time. I have been on a ranch that increased the average score of the 5yo deer by over 35 points in just 5 years. It takes a lot of variables to come together. I agree it can't be done on most places, but when done right it can make a drastic change quickly.
Just take a small town and kill every male over 20 years old who is under 6'4 and make all the remaining males breed every woman in the town for 3 generations. The average height of the men would be much taller after 3 generations. Luckily with deer 3 generations happens in a very short time. Some tall males will move away. Some short males will move in and be shot and not allowed to breed. End results will be taller people.

Again, most ranches and leases can't do enough to make a real change, but it can be done, I have seen it many times.
Hunting is suppose to be fun, so don't get so caught up in the size of the deer, but enjoy the experience. Most of my life I have had a great time hunting small deer.

You just described our lease.

It is a very large ranch (16K acres), Low fence, and we cull VERY aggressively. Our hunters are all very experienced, patient, and we let deer walk until they are mature (6 or older). Our land owner also helps with the aggressive culling.

I have been on the place 11 years and witnessed continued and substantial improvement in our herd. The result is top end trophy deer on an annual basis.

Again - IMO there is a huge difference in "changing genetics" (which I do not believe can be done) versus "manipulating genetics" (which is what we have done on our place).