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    #16
    Originally posted by trophy8 View Post
    Come on now....


    I'd take the 7 over the other 2. Only way that 300 will outrun the 300 is with the 200+ grain bullets. You won't tell the 7 and 300 apart at 500 though. Both are easily capable of 1 mile +. The creedmoor, while good for what it is, is not in the same ballpark as those 2.

    For example on the 7....I'm running a 180 grain Berger at 3070 FPS. 5.3 mils at 1000 depending on elevation and pressure and wind. That 6.5 won't even come close to that.

    This ^^^

    I have owned five 300 Win Mags and I assure you, you do not want a long range day with one. Chris Kyle liked it from the choices he had which were limited (i.e. 5.56, 7.62x54, 300 WM, 338 Lapua). He also wrote, if he had more time behind the Lapua, that would have been his favorite. There is a difference in plinking steel all day long and a LR hunting rifle. If you are wanting to shoot long range on a regular basis, I would not go with any larger than a 7 Mag with a MB. Even at that, you will p*ss off your range buddies with the muzzle blast. You may want to consider a range rifle in a similar/identical configuration as your hunting rifle. One you can shoot a lot without hurting yourself and others. Decisions, decisions....

    On another note, personally, I look at rifles [cartridges] like golf clubs. They all have their designed purposes and limitations. You wouldn't use a pitching wedge from the fairway at 230 yards from the green. You'll get there but it'll take a few shots.

    .
    Last edited by Livin'2hunt; 11-14-2017, 06:15 AM.

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      #17
      The road from being very new to long range shooting and not reloading, to killing an elk at 1,000 yards is a long one. Not bashing the OP, just pointing out that talking about Berger bullets and such doesn't matter right now. Most of those guys are also shooting several thousand $ custom rifles, with fast twist Krieger or Bartlein barrels, throated for specific bullets.

      Get something that you will practice with a lot, and can afford to shoot and find ammo for. IMO, that's a 6.5 Creedmoor in the current market, with a number of accurate $500-$1,000 rifles and $20-$30/box match grade hunting ammo.

      Put a quality scope with turrets on it, buy a laser rangefinder, and practice a bunch. In short order you'll be able to take a pig, deer, or antelope out to 500 yards, if you're a competent shooter.

      If you get into it big time and want a longer range, big game hunting rifle, you can build one. You'll need to be reloading by that point too.

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        #18
        Originally posted by gatorgrizz27 View Post
        The road from being very new to long range shooting and not reloading, to killing an elk at 1,000 yards is a long one. Not bashing the OP, just pointing out that talking about Berger bullets and such doesn't matter right now. Most of those guys are also shooting several thousand $ custom rifles, with fast twist Krieger or Bartlein barrels, throated for specific bullets.

        Get something that you will practice with a lot, and can afford to shoot and find ammo for. IMO, that's a 6.5 Creedmoor in the current market, with a number of accurate $500-$1,000 rifles and $20-$30/box match grade hunting ammo.

        Put a quality scope with turrets on it, buy a laser rangefinder, and practice a bunch. In short order you'll be able to take a pig, deer, or antelope out to 500 yards, if you're a competent shooter.

        If you get into it big time and want a longer range, big game hunting rifle, you can build one. You'll need to be reloading by that point too.

        Agree with this. It's expensive to get started with all the accessories that go along with a rifle on long range shooting. If you're not shooting any animals past 500yds but want to ring steel at 1000yds. Not reloading right now. And new to the game. I'd do a 6.5 CM 1st due to the light recoil and solid accuracy of off the shelf ammo. You can buy a $600 rifle to do what you want to do with it, but the money needs to be spent on a solid quality scope like a Leupold VX6 or Nightforce or something along those lines that has a good repeatable turret that you can trust. If later on when you get more comfortable with long range shooting and know for sure you're gonna do more of it and possibly start reloading then you could have a custom gun made with faster twist and better action in a 6.5x284, 7mag, 7LRM, 28 Nosler just to name a few that'll put elk size animals out to a 1000yds comfortably. FYI- I've shot elk out to 800yds with 6.5x284 with 140gr bergers. That's about my max range with the 6.5x284 on elk size animals, but it's deadly and much better than a 6.5 CM.
        Good Luck

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          #19
          I’d just get the Creedmoor. All this, ‘but one day I’d like to.....’ and, ‘but if I decide to...’ is pointless. If you’re just now getting into long range shooting and you’re planning to shoot/hunt and the distances you stated, get a rifle with minimal recoil that you’ll shoot the heck out of. Just because you shot a few rounds from your buddy’s 300wm doesn’t mean you’re going to want to spend a day at the range shooting 50-100 rounds. I shoot 300wm and I can tell you I don’t shoot it NEAR as much as I shoot my Creedmoor or my .260 - they’re just flat-out more fun to shoot. I work on fundamentals with the lower recoil and, then, I may shoot 20 rounds with my 300wm. I have zero need for my 300wm unless I’m shooting elk and even then, I could do it with a .264 caliber just fine but the extra weight gives me some mental comfort. That’s why I’m building a Switchlug 6.5SAUM/300wsm combo rifle. Lol. Plenty of people killing elk with .264 calibers including the Creedmoor. People will tell you recoil is no big deal but that’s silly. The same guy given both calibers will be able to shoot the Creedmoor (or similar) much more often than the 300 before shooter fatigue sets in. That doesn’t mean you can’t learn it shoot well with a 300, you can; it’s just a LOT easier with a lower recoil round. It’s the old adage, “work smarter, not harder.” I can tell you that I track more deer for hunters using magnum calibers than non magnum and talking with other trackers and guides, it’s extremely common to see guys with heavy recoil rifles making bad shots and it’s a direct effect of recoil. Fact is, too many guys are comparing ‘sticks’ with their buddies or the range crowd and thinking with their middle brains instead of with the one between their ears. In an effort to prove their ‘big boys’ they have a rifle that they shoot just enough to make sure it’s sighted in. I’ll take a girl with a 22-250, .243 or 6.5 over a burly dude with his .300 any day of the week. Lol. Before some others get their panties in a bunch, I’m not slamming the .300wm, I’m just saying it’s not what I’d consider a good caliber for a beginning precision shooter.

          As for the inevitable comparison to US military snipers who are using 300wm.....c’mon now. Lol! The needs of a military sniper in combat are incredibly different than the needs of a civilian shooter. We do not have to try and punch through a wall or window or body armor; nor do we have to disable a vehicle, etc. Not to mention the fact that they, at best, have a few calibers to choose from; and those choices do not include any 6.5mm or 7mm rounds. It’s funny that the people that make comparisons to the military shooters never mention that, when they shoot civilian non-ELR competitions (like PRS) they do NOT choose a .30 caliber round, they almost exclusively shoot 6.5mm and 6mm. These are guys who are experts at recoil management and certainly have no fear of recoil are choosing these low recoil calibers. I wonder why that is??? I wonder why the sniper fantasy guys never mention that? Lol! In fact, many of the top precision shooters have training rifles that are identical to their match rifles but are chambered in .223.

          I fall into the trap of wanting to build that 1 magical gun that will do it all for me. It’s a fantasy, though. Sure, you can shoehorn a big heavy caliber into that role but you can do the same thing with a small caliber. I could kill an elk with a 22 Hornet if I had to and I could kill a coyote with a .338 Edge or .375 Addiction. Does that mean they’re do-it all calibers? No. So, I say don’t try and make 1 rifle work. Wrap your head around having 2-3 rifles for doing it all and buy/build for what you KNOW you’ll shoot/hunt....not for what you “might.” Getting into LR shooting you don’t even know what you don’t know. I promise, you’re going to make changes as you gain experience. The likelihood that the rifle you start with will be the same one you’re shooting in 3 years (assuming you actually pursue this seriously) is about 1%. So, I say buy a rifle that’s easy and fun to shoot. Something that you can shoot ALL day and that you can afford to buy lots of ammo for. QUALITY MATCH GRADE AMMO. A 6.5cm or a .260 with Prime ammo fits that bill a lot better than a 300wm. Then, go out and shoot it A LOT!! there is no substitute for trigger pulls. In the end, it’s ALL about precision and accuracy, IMO. If you can shoot a 4” group at 600yds, there isn’t anything you can’t DRT, with a 6.5 or a 300wm and proper bullet choice. With that kind of accuracy, the caliber (within reason) is largely irrelevant. I think it’s easier to become a good shooter without the recoil. JMO.




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            #20
            Originally posted by G5-Maniac View Post
            Off the shelf ammo unless I find someone that reloads in my area.


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            Accuracy is very important for long range shooting, factory loads are not going to be near as accurate as a properly loaded hand load. The factory loads are designed to function in a lot of different rifles, so the bullets are seated deeper than what is optimum for best accuracy. When only shooting at 100 yards to maybe 200 yards, factory loads work fine. But I would never count on factory loads out around 500 yards. Another factor that hurt accuracy of factory loads is the powder charge, factory loads are usually a little on the lighter side on the powder charge. Typically there is a lot of empty case in a factory load. That results in inconsistent burn rate, which produces inconsistent pressures, velocity and accuracy. Then also the powder charges in factory loads can vary more than what good hand loads can be loaded to.

            I have not hunted with factory loads since I was probably 15 years old. Most factory ammo, you are doing good to get 1" groups at 100 yards, some will get down to close to 1/2" at 100 yards, but those would be much less common. Good hand loads, you can get a good rifle to shoot 3/8" or less typically. We used to have two Remington 700 Varmint rifles, wood stock heavy barrels. The first was in 308 Win., the only modifications to that gun, was a Timney trigger and a glass bedding job. I was able to work on the hand loads and get it to shoot center to center groups of .100" on average, sometimes a little smaller, some times a little larger. Later we bought another 700 Varmint in 22-250, all stock, except for a Timney trigger. Again, I was able to get that rifle down to .100" average group sizes at 100 yards. Then later I bought a Remington Sendero about the time they came out. I worked on the hand loads for it, only adjusted the stock trigger, no modifications otherwise to the rifle. That gun would shoot 3/8" groups at 200 yards. 100 yard groups looked like one bullet hole.

            That is the kind of accuracy you should have, if you plan on taking longer shots, starting out with a rifle that shoots 3/4" to 1" groups at 100 yards, then think you are going to go shoot at animals at 500 yards, is not a good idea. Out in the field you have all types of other factors, moving targets, wind, not the best of rests, ect. You need a rifle that will produce very good accuracy at longer ranges. If you start off hunting at 500 yards or so, with a rifle that produces 1" 100 yard groups, you are taking a high risk of wounding animals on a regular basis. I have had pretty good success killing deer at long ranges, but I have always used a rifle that had very good accuracy and I shot at longer ranges often. I learned the bullet drop of my hand loads out as far as I could.

            What I commonly see, is guys buy expensive rifles, some of which should produce very good accuracy, other I am not sure about. Then other guys have expensive custom rifles built, either way, they load factory ammo in the gun, take it out and it shoots 3/4" or so groups and they are all types of happy. Then they take it hunting and take long range shots and either miss or wound deer. The reasons they typically have problems at longer ranges, is the accuracy is not what it should be for very long range shots, then they don't ever shoot the rifle at longer ranges, till they actually go hunting. Commonly they really don't know the bullet drop of the exact round they are hunting with. Then another big problem, is they will practice and sight the rifle in with one type of ammo. Then run out and go find ammo, but what they find, is not the same. But you know, it is the same weight bullet, kind of looks the same and it's also one of the cool brand and type of ammo also, so it's good. But reality is, it could have a point of impact that is off 2" or so, then it may be more or less accurate. But they have no idea, because they have never shot the gun with that ammo, but that is what they will take to go hunting.

            Tonight, I am going to start loading ammo for my two rifles, to get ready for a hunt later this month. I know one rifle should be dead on. I have the loads worked up for both rifles. I just need to load ammo. Then get back out to the range, to make sure everything is good. For the last two years, I have been hunting with a rifle that would not shoot under 1" groups, I have been very worried about using the rifle, but it is my main hunting rifle. At first, it shot 3/8" groups, I was not happy with those groups, but I decided to live with those groups till I could figure out why the **** gun would not shoot tighter groups. Then the scope died and the gun has never shot 3/8" groups again. I think I have finally found the problem, the barrel was very loose in the upper receiver. I replaced the upper receiver and lower and a few other parts, I have wanted to replace. I had .004" of play between the upper receiver and the barrel. That was not good for crap. I now have .0000" of play between the two parts. I think I am finally going to get some good groups out of the rifle. If so, I will finally feel comfortable shooting past 200 yards with the gun. Where I have been hunting, shots over 200 yards are a high possibility. But so far, I have not had a situation where I would need to take a shot over 200 yards.
            My back up rifle will shoot 3/8" groups all day, but I just don't feel comfortable shooting that rifle. It's a very light rifle and very uncomfortable, very poorly designed stock. But even with it being so uncomfortable, I can still shoot 3/8" groups all day. The main rifle, is much heavier, feels like I should be able to make one hole groups all day long, but it has never been close to that. When I am shooting that rifle, it is rock solid, does not move around at all, very comfortable, but it would not shoot. A loose fitting barrel will do that. The caliber that gun is chambered for, I would say is good for about 500 yards without much problem. I now need to learn that rifle at longer ranges, if it finally shoots well.

            Basically there is a lot more to just picking a caliber for long range shooting. You need good ammo, a good rifle that is capable of preferably 1/4" or less groups, when you are shooting it, not someone else. Then a gun you have lots of confidence shooting, one that is very steady. A feather weight rifle is not a good choice for long range shooting, yes, it can be accurate for a few shots before the barrel heats up, but another big problem with light rifles is, it is hard to hold a light rifle steady, much more so in heavy winds. For those reasons, my back up rifle has been a back up rifle and not a primary rifle, because it is very light and then the uncomfortable part, I don't feel like it should be a accurate rifle, but is has been quite a bit more accurate than my main rifle.

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              #21
              A long range setup is a system, rifle capable of the accuracy, Optics capable of the task, Ammo that is very consistent and the shooter. Reloads can be tuned to the rifle will be more consistent and accurate in that rifle.

              There are businesses that will take your rifle and develop an accurate load tuned to it then make you more ammo to those specifications when you need more. There are a few of those around Texas, some custom smiths offer that for an accuracy load for a custom rifle as well. Not cheap but for someone that doesn't reload or have the time to load it works.

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                #22
                Originally posted by Horitexan View Post
                I fall into the trap of wanting to build that 1 magical gun that will do it all for me. It’s a fantasy, though.
                Yes! The only "mistakes" I've ever made buying guns are the times I've tried to build do-it-alls. I have learned to fight that urge and specialize for every task.

                Originally posted by Horitexan View Post
                People will tell you recoil is no big deal but that’s silly.
                Agreed. I highly recommend shooting a magnum or other cartridge with 20+ ft/lbs of recoil a few times before deciding to buy one. By the way, if you add on a brake you will NOT make friends with your neighboring stalls at the range.

                I have a 7mm WBY and I love it. When your adrenaline is going in a hunting situation I don't even notice the kick. If I was going on an elk hunt it'd probably be my go-to. But taking it out for a long range day? No thanks.

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                  #23
                  On the recoil I have a couple light weight magnums that I got a concussion shooting them before I got a good recoil pad on them, no scope eye or anything but just from the fst jarring from the recoil.

                  I am not recoil shy but dang it adds up over time. Load workup has was a drawn out process for the 50BMG, more range trips than for any gun I have loaded for.

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                    #24
                    For those ranges I would pick the 6.5 unless the animals you're planning to hunt are elk size or larger. Then I'd go 7 mag


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                      #25
                      Horitexan, great post!

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by Horitexan View Post
                        I’d just get the Creedmoor. All this, ‘but one day I’d like to.....’ and, ‘but if I decide to...’ is pointless. If you’re just now getting into long range shooting and you’re planning to shoot/hunt and the distances you stated, get a rifle with minimal recoil that you’ll shoot the heck out of. Just because you shot a few rounds from your buddy’s 300wm doesn’t mean you’re going to want to spend a day at the range shooting 50-100 rounds. I shoot 300wm and I can tell you I don’t shoot it NEAR as much as I shoot my Creedmoor or my .260 - they’re just flat-out more fun to shoot. I work on fundamentals with the lower recoil and, then, I may shoot 20 rounds with my 300wm. I have zero need for my 300wm unless I’m shooting elk and even then, I could do it with a .264 caliber just fine but the extra weight gives me some mental comfort. That’s why I’m building a Switchlug 6.5SAUM/300wsm combo rifle. Lol. Plenty of people killing elk with .264 calibers including the Creedmoor. People will tell you recoil is no big deal but that’s silly. The same guy given both calibers will be able to shoot the Creedmoor (or similar) much more often than the 300 before shooter fatigue sets in. That doesn’t mean you can’t learn it shoot well with a 300, you can; it’s just a LOT easier with a lower recoil round. It’s the old adage, “work smarter, not harder.” I can tell you that I track more deer for hunters using magnum calibers than non magnum and talking with other trackers and guides, it’s extremely common to see guys with heavy recoil rifles making bad shots and it’s a direct effect of recoil. Fact is, too many guys are comparing ‘sticks’ with their buddies or the range crowd and thinking with their middle brains instead of with the one between their ears. In an effort to prove their ‘big boys’ they have a rifle that they shoot just enough to make sure it’s sighted in. I’ll take a girl with a 22-250, .243 or 6.5 over a burly dude with his .300 any day of the week. Lol. Before some others get their panties in a bunch, I’m not slamming the .300wm, I’m just saying it’s not what I’d consider a good caliber for a beginning precision shooter.

                        As for the inevitable comparison to US military snipers who are using 300wm.....c’mon now. Lol! The needs of a military sniper in combat are incredibly different than the needs of a civilian shooter. We do not have to try and punch through a wall or window or body armor; nor do we have to disable a vehicle, etc. Not to mention the fact that they, at best, have a few calibers to choose from; and those choices do not include any 6.5mm or 7mm rounds. It’s funny that the people that make comparisons to the military shooters never mention that, when they shoot civilian non-ELR competitions (like PRS) they do NOT choose a .30 caliber round, they almost exclusively shoot 6.5mm and 6mm. These are guys who are experts at recoil management and certainly have no fear of recoil are choosing these low recoil calibers. I wonder why that is??? I wonder why the sniper fantasy guys never mention that? Lol! In fact, many of the top precision shooters have training rifles that are identical to their match rifles but are chambered in .223.

                        I fall into the trap of wanting to build that 1 magical gun that will do it all for me. It’s a fantasy, though. Sure, you can shoehorn a big heavy caliber into that role but you can do the same thing with a small caliber. I could kill an elk with a 22 Hornet if I had to and I could kill a coyote with a .338 Edge or .375 Addiction. Does that mean they’re do-it all calibers? No. So, I say don’t try and make 1 rifle work. Wrap your head around having 2-3 rifles for doing it all and buy/build for what you KNOW you’ll shoot/hunt....not for what you “might.” Getting into LR shooting you don’t even know what you don’t know. I promise, you’re going to make changes as you gain experience. The likelihood that the rifle you start with will be the same one you’re shooting in 3 years (assuming you actually pursue this seriously) is about 1%. So, I say buy a rifle that’s easy and fun to shoot. Something that you can shoot ALL day and that you can afford to buy lots of ammo for. QUALITY MATCH GRADE AMMO. A 6.5cm or a .260 with Prime ammo fits that bill a lot better than a 300wm. Then, go out and shoot it A LOT!! there is no substitute for trigger pulls. In the end, it’s ALL about precision and accuracy, IMO. If you can shoot a 4” group at 600yds, there isn’t anything you can’t DRT, with a 6.5 or a 300wm and proper bullet choice. With that kind of accuracy, the caliber (within reason) is largely irrelevant. I think it’s easier to become a good shooter without the recoil. JMO.




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                        Listen to the above. I agree with 99% of it. In the grand scheme of things 500yds is not long range and you don't need anything special to kill deer out to that distance. I prefer the 300 WM just because I have so many years of experience with it and if I'm shooting deer inside 400yds a 243 with a quality bullet will do everything a 6.5CM will do (as far as the deer is concerned).

                        Shooting fundamentals are many times more important that the caliber you choose for 99% of recreational shooters. The "long range" game looks cool but in reality most people don't truly understand what is involved with it, have no where to even practice it, and if you were to get serious about it you won't be running a factory rifle or shooting off the shelf ammo very long. I tell folks when it comes to long range, the Indian is 90% of the game and the stick is the other 10%. You can own the baddest rig money can buy but if you can't make a good wind call, don't understand natural point of aim, natural pause, or grip/trigger fundamentals you are urinating in the wind.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Black Ice View Post
                          I bought a 300 win mag that I can shoot all day. Honestly I would rather shoot my .300 win mag over my .243 Sako. The only gun that is more pleasant to shoot is my heavy barrel 22/250.


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                          How heavy is the rifle? Suppressor? Muzzle Brake? I can make a 50 BMG have less recoil than a .223 if I put enough weight into the gun plu s a brake. Can't just throw a statement out there when you have a custom gun that weighs 20 pounds with a brake, compared to a factory rifle that is only going to weigh 9 lbs and no brake.

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                            #28
                            6.5 for the distances you are quoting....

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                              #29
                              Creedmor all day. 300 is a lot of Gun.

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                                #30
                                As much as I am anti Creedmoor, for what you are describing, get the Creedmoor.


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