Libertarians & Conservatives

[XBowHunter]

By definition, libertarians welcome those of faith into the party.

But when those with faith try to legislate their religious beliefs they cease to be libertarian IMO

[flywise]

This is America, in America there is the freedom of religion.
I dont want to see a satanic display but i dont have a choice but to accept it if one in placed on public ground next to a nativity scene. Id explain to my children that the folks were destined to an eternity in hell and that we should pray for them.
Allowing a symbols on public ground is not the promotion of those symbols.
I cant think of a piece of legislation where Christians tried
To force their views on the population. They have tried to pass legislation to remove laws that were forced on them against their will and beliefs. But i guess libertarians have no problems with any law that works against the Christian community.

[XBowHunter]

This is America, in America there is the freedom of religion.
I dont want to see a satanic display but i dont have a choice but to accept it if one in placed on public ground next to a nativity scene. Id explain to my children that the folks were destined to an eternity in hell and that we should pray for them.
Allowing a symbols on public ground is not the promotion of those symbols.
I cant think of a piece of legislation where Christians tried
To force their views on the population. They have tried to pass legislation to remove laws that were forced on them against their will and beliefs. But i guess libertarians have no problems with any law that works against the Christian community.

So fighting same sex marriage & abortion are only trying to remove laws forced on them?

Sorry, I don't follow.

Back to the nativity scene. How about we just limit displays to private property? then there are no questions.

[Ætheling]

A libertarian believes a nativity scene on private property is not an issue.

Back to the nativity scene. How about we just limit displays to private property? then there are no questions.

So we are in agreement you are not a libertarian. You are also upset on another thread that govt paid healthcare is going to be rolled back.

[XBowHunter]

So we are in agreement you are not a libertarian. You are also upset on another thread that govt paid healthcare is going to be rolled back.

No we are not in agreement.

I am not 100% libertarian, but am mostly libertarian.


if you disagree with abortion and same-sex marriage in some states then you are not 100% libertarian either.

[flywise]

So fighting same sex marriage & abortion are only trying to remove laws forced on them?

Sorry, I don't follow.

Back to the nativity scene. How about we just limit displays to private property? then there are no questions.

Absolutely, abortion was forced on the American people and Christians should not be forced to pay for them and before you say we dont, its very well established that we do.
Gay marriage was also forced on the American people by a supreme court creating rights that do not exist in the constitution. These two issues should be states rights issues and should be held to a vote by a States population

[XBowHunter]

Absolutely, abortion was forced on the American people and Christians should not be forced to pay for them and before you say we dont, its very well established that we do.

Gay marriage was also forced on the American people by a supreme court creating rights that do not exist in the constitution. These two issues should be states rights issues and should be held to a vote by a States population

A libertarian view says marriage don't even belong with the government. Make it a legal, binding private contract.

We will have to disagree on who pays for abortion. Republicans have made sure those protections have been legislated.

[SaltwaterSlick]

XBow, please do not take what I post wrongly as I do not mean any disrespect or downcast toward you.
I have enjoyed this thread and literally everyone's input, but it is absolutely troubling to me. I AM a Christian, and I do my best to try to be a good steward of all that God provides me, and I do my best to follow the teachings of His Son Jesus Christ my Savior. I am human and I fail miserably at it sometimes. Sometimes what I do winds up hurting Him and I become a bad witness to Him with others. I feel this is one of those times. Much of my commentary on this thread has been given from not anger, but desperation and sorrow of sorts... I believe what the Bible teaches about right and wrong, and when I can, I try to share that belief. Sometimes that puts me in a bad light with others and does no good. Jesus teaches us to just sew the seed. He does not tell us that we must be successful. His Spirit will work in those whose hearts are softened by his Word and teaching from others. Others, it will not, but it is their choice. You see, God have us free will when He created us in His image. I have tried to share what I believe to be God's truth. I hope the things I have posted will be received as such, but there is absolutely no way I can square some of the things you posted with my beliefs. To me being a Christian, there is no separation of different parts of our lives whether we are at work, involved in the government, at play or whatever we do. Therefore I have no separation between government and my personal beliefs. I cannot and will not support the murder of a child inside its mother's womb no different than I can support the killing of innocent people in the Middle East and elsewhere by religious fanatics. They are the same thing. Once that embryo is fertilized and it becomes a baby, the mother's (and father's) rights are second to the life they have created. Their right to choose was BEFORE conception. This term "Marriage" is a biblical term that the government has chosen to adopt as its own. IF government wants to use that term, it must be used within the context from which it was created. It is the union of a man and a woman in Holy Matrimony and is the means by which we were instructed to populate the earth at Creation directly by God. In fact the Bible teaches that anything else is sin and a straight path to the gates of Hell. If the government wants to give rights to same sex partners in our legal system, they an call it a "contract", a "couple", or anything they deem OK, but it is NOT a marriage.

I will close by saying that I will pray for you personally and I hope you can be at peace within your own heart, but your words describe someone who is "broadminded" and to me that is a synonym for "sin". I doubt anything I post will have any affect on you or your beliefs, and I truly am sorry, but I was compelled to post.

[Ætheling]

Absolutely, abortion was forced on the American people and Christians should not be forced to pay for them and before you say we dont, its very well established that we do.
Gay marriage was also forced on the American people by a supreme court creating rights that do not exist in the constitution. These two issues should be states rights issues and should be held to a vote by a States population

So many liberal leaning "libertarians" that are all about government not interfering in private citizens business only now that that the government already did and made things the way they like them. As long as the status quo is liberal they are all about zero interference.

[Ætheling]

No we are not in agreement.

I am not 100% libertarian, but am mostly libertarian.


if you disagree with abortion and same-sex marriage in some states then you are not 100% libertarian either.

Give this a read.

http://reason.com/blog/2015/08/14/sorry-rand-paul-haters-pro-life-libertar

"From my perspective, the consistent libertarian position on abortion is contingent—it depends whether you believe the entity developing in the womb counts as a human being.

I accept that some people don't think it does. And if I were one of them, I'd probably be pro-choice too. Like many libertarians, a fundamental question I use to adjudicate whether an act should be considered a crime is whether or not it has a victim. Drug use? Consensual prostitution? Working for less than the wage some politician has decided should be the legislatively mandated minimum? I oppose government intervention to stop any of these things, because none of them involves the use of force by one human being against another.

But for the consistent libertarian who looks at an ultrasound and sees a baby, a person, a fully human life, it's extraordinarily hard to avoid the conclusion that abortion is an act of violence.
"

[XBowHunter]

XBow, please do not take what I post wrongly as I do not mean any disrespect or downcast toward you.
I have enjoyed this thread and literally everyone's input, but it is absolutely troubling to me. I AM a Christian, and I do my best to try to be a good steward of all that God provides me, and I do my best to follow the teachings of His Son Jesus Christ my Savior. I am human and I fail miserably at it sometimes. Sometimes what I do winds up hurting Him and I become a bad witness to Him with others. I feel this is one of those times. Much of my commentary on this thread has been given from not anger, but desperation and sorrow of sorts... I believe what the Bible teaches about right and wrong, and when I can, I try to share that belief. Sometimes that puts me in a bad light with others and does no good. Jesus teaches us to just sew the seed. He does not tell us that we must be successful. His Spirit will work in those whose hearts are softened by his Word and teaching from others. Others, it will not, but it is their choice. You see, God have us free will when He created us in His image. I have tried to share what I believe to be God's truth. I hope the things I have posted will be received as such, but there is absolutely no way I can square some of the things you posted with my beliefs. To me being a Christian, there is no separation of different parts of our lives whether we are at work, involved in the government, at play or whatever we do. Therefore I have no separation between government and my personal beliefs. I cannot and will not support the murder of a child inside its mother's womb no different than I can support the killing of innocent people in the Middle East and elsewhere by religious fanatics. They are the same thing. Once that embryo is fertilized and it becomes a baby, the mother's (and father's) rights are second to the life they have created. Their right to choose was BEFORE conception. This term "Marriage" is a biblical term that the government has chosen to adopt as its own. IF government wants to use that term, it must be used within the context from which it was created. It is the union of a man and a woman in Holy Matrimony and is the means by which we were instructed to populate the earth at Creation directly by God. In fact the Bible teaches that anything else is sin and a straight path to the gates of Hell. If the government wants to give rights to same sex partners in our legal system, they an call it a "contract", a "couple", or anything they deem OK, but it is NOT a marriage.

I will close by saying that I will pray for you personally and I hope you can be at peace within your own heart, but your words describe someone who is "broadminded" and to me that is a synonym for "sin". I doubt anything I post will have any affect on you or your beliefs, and I truly am sorry, but I was compelled to post.

Correct, your words will not affect me. I have decided on religion, Jesus, politics and philosophy long ago.

I appreciate your concerns and beliefs, but to me they are much more personal to me.

God did in fact give us free will. I support a government that believes in personal freedoms and choices, just as god gave people choice.

[XBowHunter]

So many liberal leaning "libertarians" that are all about government not interfering in private citizens business only now that that the government already did and made things the way they like them. As long as the status quo is liberal they are all about zero interference.

IMO, abortion is a personal choice between a woman, her doctor and her God.

The choice does not belong with any other people, including the govt.

[Ætheling]

IMO, abortion is a personal choice between a woman, her doctor and her God.

The choice does not belong with any other people, including the govt.

That's fine. That's your opinion, you do not dictate to all libertarians what the libertarian position.

I have very few policy issues which I disagree with you on. My problem is you get into a liberal policy v conservative policy disagreement with guys on here and then state your position is the libertarian position when 100s of thousand if not millions of libertarians adamantly disagree with your position. Then members on here think that all libertarians are liberally leaning which they are not. Recently you led one member on here to conclude that libertarians are looking for a "socialist utopia". That's my problem. Even the title to this thread is an illogical statement. Conservatism and Libertarianism are not mutually exclusive.

[XBowHunter]

Give this a read.

http://reason.com/blog/2015/08/14/sorry-rand-paul-haters-pro-life-libertar

"From my perspective, the consistent libertarian position on abortion is contingent—it depends whether you believe the entity developing in the womb counts as a human being.



I accept that some people don't think it does. And if I were one of them, I'd probably be pro-choice too. Like many libertarians, a fundamental question I use to adjudicate whether an act should be considered a crime is whether or not it has a victim. Drug use? Consensual prostitution? Working for less than the wage some politician has decided should be the legislatively mandated minimum? I oppose government intervention to stop any of these things, because none of them involves the use of force by one human being against another.



But for the consistent libertarian who looks at an ultrasound and sees a baby, a person, a fully human life, it's extraordinarily hard to avoid the conclusion that abortion is an act of violence.

"

When someone wants to impose their beliefs on other people and prevent those people from life liberty and happiness then I have a problem.

The current law is abortion is legal and supported by the majority of the country.

For me, it's really simple;

If you don't approve of an abortion, don't get one.

If you don't approve of same sex marriage, don't get gay married

[XBowHunter]

That's fine. That's your opinion, you do not dictate to all libertarians what the libertarian position.



I have very few policy issues which I disagree with you on. My problem is you get into a liberal policy v conservative policy disagreement with guys on here and then state your position is the libertarian position when 100s of thousand if not millions of libertarians adamantly disagree with your position. Then members on here think that all libertarians are liberally leaning which they are not. Recently you led one member on here to conclude that libertarians are looking for a "socialist utopia". That's my problem. Even the title to this thread is an illogical statement. Conservatism and Libertarianism are not mutually exclusive.

You are entitled to your opinion as well.

The official party platform for the Libertarian party disagrees with you on some things however.

Specifically dictating personal morals on people.

Just sayin, not trying to be disrespectful