What's your management plan?

[James]

Our plan...
Feed as much as you can afford.
Trophies at 6.5 plus if you are disciplined enough.
Cull selective 3 year olds (no brows, 5-7 points, scrubs under 100") 4 year old 8s that don't have big frames and potential to be special.
Pray your neighbors don't shoot the nice ones you pass (my hardest problem past couple years)

[lovemylegacy]

If you manage for the macro stuff well, you are going to be dealing with very important micro questions... ie... what to shoot and what to leave...

When the macro stuff is done... those questions get tougher and tougher... you are choosing between 5 year olds... or you are choosing to not kill as many Does this year not because of your fawn crop this year... but because of your lack of fawn crop last year... simple things... but hard to write about from a macro perspective...

Every manager so far that gets to the point of consistent quality has just had to figure those those things out for themselves.

There are guidelines but I don’t know that anyone has written many of them down.

I get what you are saying...you make sound way more difficult than it is.

This is what I have learned, if you manage your property, it benefits all the wildlife and there are many common sense ways to do that. Being under an MLD program, which we are bound to do, the biologist gives us guidelines, not rules, we follow them and do more than he suggests. In wildlife management there is no such thing as a "cull", only in trophy management. In management you are attempting to increase the health of all wildlife and deer benefit from this, antler growth is a subsidiary of this "health" management.

I have read material and watched many videos discussing these very topics, I just don't get where you can there hasn't been much written about this, but, whatever.

Very informative thread

[Encinal]

Have you ever read anything about disappearing in-line points, or the “out of nowhere” blow up?

Have you read about how poor is too poor to recover from the next year even if they live?

Have you read about which 8’s are likely to turn into 10’s or which 10’s are likely to turn into twelves?

Which deer with imbalanced points 4x5 or 5x6 are always going to stay that way? Which ones are going to balance out?

Can antler density tell you about potential?

There’s no science done on any of those things that I’ve ever read... but I’m sure you can think about your observations and find clues to likelyhoods.

When dealing in the minutia of which deer gets to stay and which one has to go every little edge has a chance to help.

That’s where the art still lies in being a manager, and I would love for someone to publish a coloring book.

It’s not difficult at all as you said, but you have to know what to look for. Many of the things are perhaps herd and situationally specific.

Basically it’s just a whole lot of questions.

Who’s going to be the first one of us to get a phenotypic expression on a doe that gives us a clue to what type of antlers they might throw? Is there not one? Is it wider heads? Narrower? The same body coloring as many of your larger bucks in the area?

Once you get the macro stuff down, you start asking screwball questions.

[elgato]

Here's a couple more things you might not learn from QDMA:

When to shoot female fawns because you want to keep the number of mature does you have to assure robust recruitment. Yet you still need some doe removal for population control.

The value of getting lots of bucks in the older age classes to compensate for gaps in age classes caused from years of low fawn recruitment. If you have a strong population of bucks in the harvestable age { 7-10 } then gaps in upcoming age classes aren't so detrimental to any particular season.

For those that don't do DMP or such , the value of letting high quality bucks that are trophies by your standards yet not something you might want to harvest die of old age. This gives quality bucks many more years in the breeding pool to effect the herd. As a biologist once told me " In a trophy program if you don't have some bucks dieing of old age you are probably over harvesting your ranch".

For as that goes you want read any studies of the influence of DMP pens on population dynamics.

Or longterm survivability and impact of deer being trapped from other areas and transported to ranches. Or introducing northern genes to southern herds.

Even though many of the founders of QDMA were the first to experiment with game fencing you want read anything from them of the pros/cons and responsibilities involved once a fence is built. Fact based information versus emotion.

QDMA has been outspoken in their opposition to deer breeders. To me this is ironic when they have bestowed their highest honors to the biologist who essentially founded the deer breeding industry and still serve in QDMA today. Nor do they acknowledge all the valuable research garnered from collegiate and private research facilities { read deer breeding operations } around the country. Yet they are quick to post knowledge gained from these biologist and the programs they lead. Thus you wont read any non opinionated facts on knowledge gained from captive pens and how they help us all be better manager irrespective the size of our fence.

While I support QDMA and believe the principles they espouse are valuable, I also believe there is much more they could do to aid managers and dispel some of the polarization in the deer community frequently based on emotional reactions versus actual fact.

[Encinal]

Couldn’t agree more about the knowledge gained by Breeders. It’s been immensely valuable and gained us knowledge that can be applied to all herds.

[lovemylegacy]

Have you ever read anything about disappearing in-line points, or the “out of nowhere” blow up?

Have you read about how poor is too poor to recover from the next year even if they live?

Have you read about which 8’s are likely to turn into 10’s or which 10’s are likely to turn into twelves?

Which deer with imbalanced points 4x5 or 5x6 are always going to stay that way? Which ones are going to balance out?

Can antler density tell you about potential?

There’s no science done on any of those things that I’ve ever read... but I’m sure you can think about your observations and find clues to likelyhoods.

When dealing in the minutia of which deer gets to stay and which one has to go every little edge has a chance to help.

That’s where the art still lies in being a manager, and I would love for someone to publish a coloring book.

It’s not difficult at all as you said, but you have to know what to look for. Many of the things are perhaps herd and situationally specific.

Basically it’s just a whole lot of questions.

Who’s going to be the first one of us to get a phenotypic expression on a doe that gives us a clue to what type of antlers they might throw? Is there not one? Is it wider heads? Narrower? The same body coloring as many of your larger bucks in the area?

Once you get the macro stuff down, you start asking screwball questions.

Yessir, it is an impossibility to know or understand all there is about antler development or potential or the lack there of. Just reading what you are writing here makes me ask the question, why cull? If we cannot predict the future antler development of a buck then why cull them? In my opinion, an "inferior" buck, still carries a certain percentage of "preferable" genetics. However, this more on the lines of "Trophy Management" and not "Wildlife Management" or QDMA.

You could actually drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out. I still prescribe to the frame of mind of manage your property and let the deer quality rise from that. Property quality is the only thing we can control. Even trying to control the population is a crap shoot, especially using state limitations.

[lovemylegacy]

elgato, I have always wondered why young doe were not the main target or a main target in doe harvest. If you have a doe that you are fairly certain that cast twins or was bred by a "quality" buck, shouldnt she allowed to exhibit her quality aspects just like a buck.

I think when we look at antler quality only or as our main objective, we are being narrow minded.

[lovemylegacy]

Couldn’t agree more about the knowledge gained by Breeders. It’s been immensely valuable and gained us knowledge that can be applied to all herds.

How does knowledge of penned deer give you knowledge of free ranging deer.

Penned deer are under controlled circumstances their whole life, how does that knowledge translate to wild free ranging deer?

Feed-penned deer have fewer choices, but those choices may be a gross amount of nutrients, where as a free ranging deer has many more choices with possibly less nutrients?

Breeding- penned deer are set up to breed a specific doe based up on a recorded lineage. free ranging bucks will breed any in season doe that they can.

Man, you can just walk it down the list and each category will have different results based upon captive vs wild deer.

Interesting as it may be...

[elgato]

How does knowledge of penned deer give you knowledge of free ranging deer.

Penned deer are under controlled circumstances their whole life, how does that knowledge translate to wild free ranging deer?

Feed-penned deer have fewer choices, but those choices may be a gross amount of nutrients, where as a free ranging deer has many more choices with possibly less nutrients?

Breeding- penned deer are set up to breed a specific doe based up on a recorded lineage. free ranging bucks will breed any in season doe that they can.

Man, you can just walk it down the list and each category will have different results based upon captive vs wild deer.



Interesting as it may be...

When you look at all the research done by the various universities, Ms. State, Auburn University and others, couple that with research done by Caesar kleburg
and other research institutions you find much of what we know scientifically about whitetail deer and its relationship to its environment. A vast amount of this research is conducted in controlled breeding pens. Going a step further many private breeders have by either working independently or in conjunction with universities furthered insights into how deer respond to various inputs. Much of the jargon and conventional wisdom we all use today came from such facilities .

take a look at the Caesar Kleburg current research and you will see pages of research conducted in relatively small enclosures. Same with Ms. State which has been a research leader for decades in the field and provided leading edge management advise from their university pens which is considered conventional wisdom today.

Practical impacts include:
All aspects of the nutritional needs of deer including seasonal needs, maternal needs , effects of nutrition on antler growth,etc etc etc. Deer breeders in particular have provided significant insight into nutritional needs.

Deer breeders especially have been at the forefront in formulating deer rations optimizing deer health. Much of that has parlayed over to private practices and formulas.

Deer pen research has essentially debunked culling as a practical field tool . Genetic research as well as observed results have shown ...and I quote" it appears that contributions of maternal, environmental and other factors to antler growth were more important than genetic potential for antler growth". There are numerous other studies supporting this position. All this has very practical field application.

I could go on and on. Suffice to say that many of todays management principles and practices, especially in situations where deer herds can be effectively managed have spawned from the knowledge gained from penned deer either raised for research or profit.

Perhaps I should add that I am not a deer breeder and don't particularly like most breeder pen deer I see. But I do respect what can be learned from them. Nor do I do any DMP,TTT, or anything else. Just feed deer and let them grow old.

[Encinal]

Yessir, it is an impossibility to know or understand all there is about antler development or potential or the lack there of. Just reading what you are writing here makes me ask the question, why cull? If we cannot predict the future antler development of a buck then why cull them? In my opinion, an "inferior" buck, still carries a certain percentage of "preferable" genetics. However, this more on the lines of "Trophy Management" and not "Wildlife Management" or QDMA.

You could actually drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out. I still prescribe to the frame of mind of manage your property and let the deer quality rise from that. Property quality is the only thing we can control. Even trying to control the population is a crap shoot, especially using state limitations.

Good question! There are lots of reasons for lots of different scenarios to remove deer. For me it’s way more about taking them off the payroll (both browse and feed) than trying to edge genetics. Genetic changes without line breeding or creating hard bottlenecks seem like effort towards insurmountable diminishing returns. Since I have restricted myself due to personal preference to managing a native deer herd, that’s effort wasted.

You can’t predict the future with certainty, certainly, but you can get closer by not just looking at one set of antlers at one age and deciding on a trigger pull.

What to shoot and what not to shoot is more about deer that already exist than some future expectation of genetic expression in a yet to be born fawn.

I take far greater interest in what deer to shoot, and when in his or her life to do it. (Haha yes you always shoot them at the end of their life).

When do you let a mature buck walk? When do you cut losses? When do you decide upside potential isn’t worth the extra time and death loss risk? How do you balance expenses vs income in a hunting operation with a 4-8 year inventory production time? Which big deer do you shoot a year earlier than you would like to because you need to shoot a big deer that year?

QDM doesn’t talk about those things because TDM is a step beyond. It’s everything QDM does plus extra attention to detail, not something else entirely.

[Christianhuff]

Old bucks

Don’t shoot a buck until they are 7, that’s when they get fun to hunt and offer a challenge.

[lovemylegacy]

When you look at all the research done by the various universities, Ms. State, Auburn University and others, couple that with research done by Caesar kleburg
and other research institutions you find much of what we know scientifically about whitetail deer and its relationship to its environment. A vast amount of this research is conducted in controlled breeding pens. Going a step further many private breeders have by either working independently or in conjunction with universities furthered insights into how deer respond to various inputs. Much of the jargon and conventional wisdom we all use today came from such facilities .

take a look at the Caesar Kleburg current research and you will see pages of research conducted in relatively small enclosures. Same with Ms. State which has been a research leader for decades in the field and provided leading edge management advise from their university pens which is considered conventional wisdom today.

Practical impacts include:
All aspects of the nutritional needs of deer including seasonal needs, maternal needs , effects of nutrition on antler growth,etc etc etc. Deer breeders in particular have provided significant insight into nutritional needs.

Deer breeders especially have been at the forefront in formulating deer rations optimizing deer health. Much of that has parlayed over to private practices and formulas.

Deer pen research has essentially debunked culling as a practical field tool . Genetic research as well as observed results have shown ...and I quote" it appears that contributions of maternal, environmental and other factors to antler growth were more important than genetic potential for antler growth". There are numerous other studies supporting this position. All this has very practical field application.

I could go on and on. Suffice to say that many of todays management principles and practices, especially in situations where deer herds can be effectively managed have spawned from the knowledge gained from penned deer either raised for research or profit.

Perhaps I should add that I am not a deer breeder and don't particularly like most breeder pen deer I see. But I do respect what can be learned from them. Nor do I do any DMP,TTT, or anything else. Just feed deer and let them grow old.

I have read some of Dr Jacobsen's material, I think he was the Professor at Miss St. I was particularly interested in a spike buck he had in a pen that grew into a monster. That was a ways back.

These days I read and watch Grant Woods, it seems to me his info is more relevant to deer and wildlife management.

I also like Dr Kroll, his research seems to be done more in the wild. I especially like his on going argument with the TPWD enclosure that skewed all that data about spikes...for why? I have no idea

So yeah I get what you are saying, I just didnt think we were talking about college research.

I totally agree with the culling myth.


Good stuff

[elgato]

Dr. Harry Jacobson is a good friend whom I have spent much time with. After retiring from Ms. State he went into private consulting and still to this day has many clients around the country. He has and does manage some of the best properties anywhere. He, Grant Woods,James Kroll, Bob Zaiglan are all buddies and would on almost all subjects regarding deer and deer management be in total agreement.

[txwhitetail]

I have read some of Dr Jacobsen's material, I think he was the Professor at Miss St. I was particularly interested in a spike buck he had in a pen that grew into a monster. That was a ways back.

These days I read and watch Grant Woods, it seems to me his info is more relevant to deer and wildlife management.

I also like Dr Kroll, his research seems to be done more in the wild. I especially like his on going argument with the TPWD enclosure that skewed all that data about spikes...for why? I have no idea

So yeah I get what you are saying, I just didnt think we were talking about college research.

I totally agree with the culling myth.


Good stuff

What is the culling myth ?

[elgato]

What is the culling myth ?

Culling to change the genetic composition of a herd is impossible?