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Rat 02-10-2018 01:08 PM

Building YOUR arrow...
 
So, I've been playing around with arrows all year; weights, broadheads, fletching, yad yada.

So last night I had all my arrows left from hunting this year and decided to make my GRXH arrows.

All of these arrows had been built, and shot, before; some just at foam, others at animals; you get the idea, they are used.

I had to drive the inserts out of the shaft after I removed the weights. I used the old drill bit trick to do this, I still lost two shafts. My thinking is they were either already damaged (I did have a few misses this year) or they were glued in so well they weren't coming out without being damaged.

I then stripped the fletching off and preped the shafts.

Since I had been using weights I knew exactly how much weight I wanted up front on my arrows; turn out it is 100 gr.

I am using Gold Tip Hunter and Velocity shafts; like I said, these are leftovers from this year's hunting.

I amusing the Gold Tip 100 gr brass inserts, so I glued them in. I am also using Grip Tip glue for the first time. If it works it will be a lot easier than needing to mix epoxy all the time.

Then I installed the nock bushings and pin nocks. I love pin nocks and I am using the Gold Tip HD pin nocks.

Then on to fletching. I am using Gateway Feathers Rayzr feathers; I've been using hem for a few years and they are great feathers. They are also very light, at 1.2 gr per feather instead of the 6 gr per vane of Blazers. This will in effect give me a better FOC percentage.

I use the EZ Fletch, and the feathers can be a little finicky in the jig, but if you pay attention it is easy enough. I also use Tip Grip on the feathers; we will see.

I ended up with two sets of arrows, Hunter and Velocity. Velocity is the lighter arrow so should give better FOC when all is said and done.

Each arrow has the exact same components, cut to the same length; in effect, they are identical except for the GPI weight of the different model shafts.

I ended up with this:
Hunter: 501 gr, 20.3% FOC
Velocity: 486 gr, 21.2% FOC

Less then 1% difference in FOC and about 15 gr difference in weight.

This is the arrow I want. For me it maximizes both FOC and weight, not too much of either, I can still use normal broadheads.

This is a very easy way to get to 500 gr and/or 20% FOC without using s bunch of special stuff, like heavy broadheads or weights. Just keep in mind, everyone is a little different and results will not be the exact same for every person; but this model will get you close.

Ranch Fairy also has a good video on this, if you haven't seen it yet, I suggest you head over and give it a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEBe-gqAoEU

Remember, figure out what you want in your arrow and then build to that; there is no right arrow for every single person or set up.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dO...o=w683-h909-no

Stoof 02-10-2018 03:06 PM

I really need to come see you buddy. This hoyt is giving me hell. I got a dozen arrows coming on Tuesday to start fresh with. The Mathews is still shooting lasers so I'm good for granger.

pigstika1978 02-10-2018 04:49 PM

Tagged


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Rat 02-10-2018 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoof (Post 13174966)
I really need to come see you buddy. This hoyt is giving me hell. I got a dozen arrows coming on Tuesday to start fresh with. The Mathews is still shooting lasers so I'm good for granger.

Whenever you get ready brutha, we can get 'er done.

Briar Friar 02-11-2018 10:51 PM

Nice builds Rat. Id like to get where you are on my Dartons arrows. Im sitting right at 20% FOC on 575 gr for my recurve.

kd350 02-13-2018 09:06 AM

So this may be a dumb question but... I’ve seen the ranch Fairy video and it’s got me thinking. Before I go through the hassle of taking my current inserts out, how would I know if I’m weakening the spine too much by putting a 100 gr insert in?

I’m shooting gold tip velocity 300 spine 29” out of a 65 lb bow

enewman 02-13-2018 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kd350 (Post 13181600)
So this may be a dumb question but... Iíve seen the ranch Fairy video and itís got me thinking. Before I go through the hassle of taking my current inserts out, how would I know if Iím weakening the spine too much by putting a 100 gr insert in?

Iím shooting gold tip velocity 300 spine 29Ē out of a 65 lb bow

Take one arrow and cut the fletchings off. Then shoot one bare and one fletched at a point on target at 20 yards. Now replace both tip to a heavier tip. And reshoot. Look at how far the bare shaft is below the fletched one. If very low like 1in or more spine is prolly underspined. Thatís the hard way. You could just look at a program.

kd350 02-13-2018 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enewman (Post 13181687)
Take one arrow and cut the fletchings off. Then shoot one bare and one fletched at a point on target at 20 yards. Now replace both tip to a heavier tip. And reshoot. Look at how far the bare shaft is below the fletched one. If very low like 1in or more spine is prolly underspined. Thatís the hard way. You could just look at a program.



Thanks. What program? Any of them free?


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Briar Friar 02-13-2018 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kd350 (Post 13183701)
Thanks. What program? Any of them free?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Mr Newman has been busy.

https://shootingtime.com/archery/bui...ow-flow-chart/
http://www.thearcheryprogram.com

The flow chart is slick. Click the diagram figures and theyre embedded with links.

Rat 02-14-2018 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kd350 (Post 13181600)
So this may be a dumb question but... Iíve seen the ranch Fairy video and itís got me thinking. Before I go through the hassle of taking my current inserts out, how would I know if Iím weakening the spine too much by putting a 100 gr insert in?

Iím shooting gold tip velocity 300 spine 29Ē out of a 65 lb bow

That arrow is going to be fine, even if it is a little weak (which I don't think it will be) you can always adjust the height of the arrow through the Berger hole as I described above.

But that would be pretty close to what I am shooting, and I am shooting a heavier draw weight, so you will be good.

Rat 02-14-2018 08:25 AM

If you want me to run your arrow...

Send me a PM with:

Your bow's make, model and year along with the current spec's (draw weight and length).

Your arrow build info, make model and length of arrow (carbon to carbon), fletching type and number, nock type (plus any bushings), tip weight and insert type. Anything that adds weight will also need to be included, like wraps or lighted nocks, etc.

Send your email in the PM and I will work it up and then send you a screen shot of the arrow as it is now and with the changes you want to make to show the difference.

For those of you wanting a program of your own. I use TAP Pro, this is a full ballistic program for everything. but there is also a product called Spinal TAP that is just for arrows. I have been using TAP Pro for years and is the most accurate arrow ballistic program I have found; as determined by the accuracy of the tape and cut chart outputs anyway.

It is not free and I don't know if there is a free trial period or not.

http://www.thearcheryprogram.com/products

Keep in mind that if you have a brand 2018 bow I will not have the specs for this bow until late Feb. or early March. But I can get it close enough for arrow spine selection.

enewman 02-14-2018 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briar Friar (Post 13183842)
Mr Newman has been busy.

https://shootingtime.com/archery/bui...ow-flow-chart/
http://www.thearcheryprogram.com

The flow chart is slick. Click the diagram figures and theyre embedded with links.

And more coming.

Traildust 02-14-2018 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat (Post 13184274)
If you want me to run your arrow...

Send me a PM with:

Your bow's make, model and year along with the current spec's (draw weight and length).

Your arrow build info, make model and length of arrow (carbon to carbon), fletching type and number, nock type (plus any bushings), tip weight and insert type. Anything that adds weight will also need to be included, like wraps or lighted nocks, etc.

Send your email in the PM and I will work it up and then send you a screen shot of the arrow as it is now and with the changes you want to make to show the difference.

For those of you wanting a program of your own. I use TAP Pro, this is a full ballistic program for everything. but there is also a product called Spinal TAP that is just for arrows. I have been using TAP Pro for years and is the most accurate arrow ballistic program I have found; as determined by the accuracy of the tape and cut chart outputs anyway.

It is not free and I don't know if there is a free trial period or not.

http://www.thearcheryprogram.com/products

Keep in mind that if you have a brand 2018 bow I will not have the specs for this bow until late Feb. or early March. But I can get it close enough for arrow spine selection.

Email sent.....#PotLicking! :D

Dry Bones 02-14-2018 11:01 AM

Rat, after my bow experimentation, I did play with some arrows from my longbows and ran a few through my compound. I have some Gold Tip Traditional arrows spined 340, with 100 grain brass inserts. @ 20 yards the difference was minimal, but from there the gap between pin and point of impact grew substantially, which I already knew was going to be the case.
Point to all this.
I REALLY like heavy points in my traditional bows, but had not moved that route in my compound. No chronograph so no way for me to really know what the change in arrow weight does for me, but in the target, (again not scientific as density changes all over the target), but the added FOC did not change the penetration by more than 1" (close to 50 comparable shots).
All my tinkering came back to was, I have had great success with my past set-up and did not see enough improved penetration from adding brass inserts that I wanted to add more money per shaft.
Have you had a chance to put any numbers on different shafts to see what you were getting in speed, kinetic energy (I also realize there is some fault at the physical number kinetic energy when looking at arrows but it's a measurable standard) and actual penetration?
My current compound set-up is 68#At 27.75" draw G5 Quest Rogue. Arrows are 28" off a QAD rest.
Sorry for the long one, still trying to make sense of FOC and actual real results.

enewman 02-14-2018 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dry Bones (Post 13184705)
Rat, after my bow experimentation, I did play with some arrows from my longbows and ran a few through my compound. I have some Gold Tip Traditional arrows spined 340, with 100 grain brass inserts. @ 20 yards the difference was minimal, but from there the gap between pin and point of impact grew substantially, which I already knew was going to be the case.
Point to all this.
I REALLY like heavy points in my traditional bows, but had not moved that route in my compound. No chronograph so no way for me to really know what the change in arrow weight does for me, but in the target, (again not scientific as density changes all over the target), but the added FOC did not change the penetration by more than 1" (close to 50 comparable shots).
All my tinkering came back to was, I have had great success with my past set-up and did not see enough improved penetration from adding brass inserts that I wanted to add more money per shaft.
Have you had a chance to put any numbers on different shafts to see what you were getting in speed, kinetic energy (I also realize there is some fault at the physical number kinetic energy when looking at arrows but it's a measurable standard) and actual penetration?
My current compound set-up is 68#At 27.75" draw G5 Quest Rogue. Arrows are 28" off a QAD rest.
Sorry for the long one, still trying to make sense of FOC and actual real results.


If Iím reading this right. You increased foc but didnt see penetration difference in a target. That is correct. You wonít. Iím suprized with the added weight you didnít notice less penetration vs more on a lighter faster arrow.

When doing penetration test you cannot use targets. Targets work on friction. So a slower arrow will not penetrate as much as a faster arrow. Just how it is. Targets can grip a slow moving arrow easier

If you want to look at penetration sand is the best. Sand has little restriction somarrow stops when it runs out of forward momentum This is a good way to prove physics. Now a high foc arrow vs low foc same weight arrow shot into sand will have about same penetration. Foc comes into play when there is restriction on impact. Meaning to see if foc will out perform you need more restriction on impact.

enewman 02-14-2018 12:18 PM

https://shootingtime.com/archery/high-foc-arrows/

Rat 02-14-2018 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dry Bones (Post 13184705)
Rat, after my bow experimentation, I did play with some arrows from my longbows and ran a few through my compound. I have some Gold Tip Traditional arrows spined 340, with 100 grain brass inserts. @ 20 yards the difference was minimal, but from there the gap between pin and point of impact grew substantially, which I already knew was going to be the case.
Point to all this.
I REALLY like heavy points in my traditional bows, but had not moved that route in my compound. No chronograph so no way for me to really know what the change in arrow weight does for me, but in the target, (again not scientific as density changes all over the target), but the added FOC did not change the penetration by more than 1" (close to 50 comparable shots).
All my tinkering came back to was, I have had great success with my past set-up and did not see enough improved penetration from adding brass inserts that I wanted to add more money per shaft.
Have you had a chance to put any numbers on different shafts to see what you were getting in speed, kinetic energy (I also realize there is some fault at the physical number kinetic energy when looking at arrows but it's a measurable standard) and actual penetration?
My current compound set-up is 68#At 27.75" draw G5 Quest Rogue. Arrows are 28" off a QAD rest.
Sorry for the long one, still trying to make sense of FOC and actual real results.

As Enewman said, it doesn't make common sense when shot into a friction stop target.

MANY years ago, some friends and me got together to try some things. This was when we first started reading about Ashby and his experiments. We built what we called the "Domino Target".

You see, we had heard that 10 gauge metal was equal in tensile strength to rib bones; I don't know if that is true or not, but that's what we heard. I worked for a sheet metal shop at the time, so we started shooting stuff. We built a target stand that would hold four 12 x 12 pieces of 10 gauge sheet metal 6 inches apart; they looked like dominoes when inserted into the target, hence the name.

We then started to tear stuff up, broadheads, arrows, sheet metal plates, everything. We shot all different kinds of arrows into those plates, heavy, high FOC, light, weak spine, stiff spine; just about everything you can think of. We could change the orientation of the plates from a "broadside" shot to any angle we wanted; and each plate was able to be at a different angle. We shot a lot of arrows. We had 100 plates.

What we found was that the higher the FOC the better the penetration through the plates, especially at weird angles. We only used three broadheads, Muzzy, Thunderhead and Zwickey. The Muzzy trocar tip never failed to penetrate, while every now and then with a steep enough angle we could get a Zwickey or a T-head to skip off; these were extreme angle cases.

Shooting arrows through two plates, and then three and eventually four, really opened our eyes to what an arrow broadhead combination is capable of when done right.

The main thing I retained out of these experiments was this; for the same weight arrow, the one with higher FOC will out penetrate every time, and if it was a two blade, it was a lot more penetration.

We didn't keep records, but we shot everything we had, three different bows and shooters, hundreds of different arrow/broadhed combinations and case after case of beer.

We didn't have a chrono back then so I can't say what the speeds were, but I would imagine they were probably around the 260-280 FPS mark. My PSE at the time was the only bow that had been chronoed and it shot 277 FPS.

Other than my broadhead target, which is a sand trap, this is the only penetration testing I have ever done.

Now that I'm waxing nostalgic I may re-run this little experiment and make a video of it all. It was very interesting to say the least.

Here is a good video with a bunch of numbers that Ranch Fairy just put out a few days ago with some good shots on a 175 lb dead pig; many different arrows and broadhead combinations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3ZzJlrSV7A

enewman 02-14-2018 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat (Post 13185180)
As Enewman said, it doesn't make common sense when shot into a friction stop target.

MANY years ago, some friends and me got together to try some things. This was when we first started reading about Ashby and his experiments. We built what we called the "Domino Target".

You see, we had heard that 10 gauge metal was equal in tensile strength to rib bones; I don't know if that is true or not, but that's what we heard. I worked for a sheet metal shop at the time, so we started shooting stuff. We built a target stand that would hold four 12 x 12 pieces of 10 gauge sheet metal 6 inches apart; they looked like dominoes when inserted into the target, hence the name.

We then started to tear stuff up, broadheads, arrows, sheet metal plates, everything. We shot all different kinds of arrows into those plates, heavy, high FOC, light, weak spine, stiff spine; just about everything you can think of. We could change the orientation of the plates from a "broadside" shot to any angle we wanted; and each plate was able to be at a different angle. We shot a lot of arrows. We had 100 plates.

What we found was that the higher the FOC the better the penetration through the plates, especially at weird angles. We only used three broadheads, Muzzy, Thunderhead and Zwickey. The Muzzy trocar tip never failed to penetrate, while every now and then with a steep enough angle we could get a Zwickey or a T-head to skip off; these were extreme angle cases.

Shooting arrows through two plates, and then three and eventually four, really opened our eyes to what an arrow broadhead combination is capable of when done right.

The main thing I retained out of these experiments was this; for the same weight arrow, the one with higher FOC will out penetrate every time, and if it was a two blade, it was a lot more penetration.

We didn't keep records, but we shot everything we had, three different bows and shooters, hundreds of different arrow/broadhed combinations and case after case of beer.

We didn't have a chrono back then so I can't say what the speeds were, but I would imagine they were probably around the 260-280 FPS mark. My PSE at the time was the only bow that had been chronoed and it shot 277 FPS.

Other than my broadhead target, which is a sand trap, this is the only penetration testing I have ever done.

Now that I'm waxing nostalgic I may re-run this little experiment and make a video of it all. It was very interesting to say the least.

Here is a good video with a bunch of numbers that Ranch Fairy just put out a few days ago with some good shots on a 175 lb dead pig; many different arrows and broadhead combinations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3ZzJlrSV7A

Since there is no like button. LIKE.

Dry Bones 02-14-2018 04:00 PM

Best part of this site is the wealth of knowledge that is shared. Thank you both for the threads and responses on mt let off thread.
(LIKE!!!)

Radar 02-15-2018 09:36 PM

I would like to ask y'all something, if I switch from a 100 gr broadhead to a 125 gr broadhead how much more drop do you have at 60 yards?

kd350 02-16-2018 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat (Post 13184274)
If you want me to run your arrow...

Send me a PM with:

Your bow's make, model and year along with the current spec's (draw weight and length).

Your arrow build info, make model and length of arrow (carbon to carbon), fletching type and number, nock type (plus any bushings), tip weight and insert type. Anything that adds weight will also need to be included, like wraps or lighted nocks, etc.

Send your email in the PM and I will work it up and then send you a screen shot of the arrow as it is now and with the changes you want to make to show the difference.

For those of you wanting a program of your own. I use TAP Pro, this is a full ballistic program for everything. but there is also a product called Spinal TAP that is just for arrows. I have been using TAP Pro for years and is the most accurate arrow ballistic program I have found; as determined by the accuracy of the tape and cut chart outputs anyway.

It is not free and I don't know if there is a free trial period or not.

http://www.thearcheryprogram.com/products

Keep in mind that if you have a brand 2018 bow I will not have the specs for this bow until late Feb. or early March. But I can get it close enough for arrow spine selection.

Sent you a pm

Rat 02-16-2018 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 13188964)
I would like to ask y'all something, if I switch from a 100 gr broadhead to a 125 gr broadhead how much more drop do you have at 60 yards?

Hard to say exactly, every arrow is different. Speed isn't the only factor, there are drag coefficients and mass location (FOC) to take into consideration as well; that's why we use ballistic programs like TAP Pro.

If you send me your information, as outlined, in a PM I can tell you what the numbers are based on the ballistic charts. It isn't going to be much though.

Rat 02-16-2018 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kd350 (Post 13189341)
Sent you a pm

Got it, I'll run the specs tonight and send you an email.

Traildust 02-19-2018 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat (Post 13189417)
Got it, I'll run the specs tonight and send you an email.

Did you get my email?

Rat 02-19-2018 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traildust (Post 13196334)
Did you get my email?

No email Traildust...
hvacrat@gmail.com

Traildust 02-19-2018 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat (Post 13196551)
No email Traildust...
hvacrat@gmail.com

Sent

Saltyag15 02-20-2018 06:20 PM

Great info on this thread! Rat and enewman have made me aware of the advantages of momentum and FOC through threads like these. I would have never known the advantages otherwise. Glad this forum is back!

Pushbutton2 02-20-2018 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enewman (Post 13185402)
Since there is no like button. LIKE.



There is
Kinda ;-)https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...29bdc0f4c6.jpg

trophy_seeker 04-26-2018 09:56 PM

Tag

equyst 05-17-2018 01:27 PM

taggedhttp://gshort.click/isna/11/o.png

Briar Friar 05-17-2018 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enewman (Post 13184937)
If I’m reading this right. You increased foc but didnt see penetration difference in a target. That is correct. You won’t. I’m suprized with the added weight you didn’t notice less penetration vs more on a lighter faster arrow.

When doing penetration test you cannot use targets. Targets work on friction. So a slower arrow will not penetrate as much as a faster arrow. Just how it is. Targets can grip a slow moving arrow easier

If you want to look at penetration sand is the best. Sand has little restriction somarrow stops when it runs out of forward momentum This is a good way to prove physics. Now a high foc arrow vs low foc same weight arrow shot into sand will have about same penetration. Foc comes into play when there is restriction on impact. Meaning to see if foc will out perform you need more restriction on impact.

I have noticed this in particular and thought it contrary to popular notion and been wondering...why the heavy and high foc arrows werent deeper than lesser arrows.

Good stuff.

bm22 08-23-2018 09:09 PM

How are you removing the old inserts with a drill bit?

JES 08-24-2018 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bm22 (Post 13571596)
How are you removing the old inserts with a drill bit?

Pull the nock out, insert a drill bit that just is slightly smaller than the inside of the arrow shaft, drill bit base down so that it lands on the insert, then raise the arrow, and whip it down, you'll have to do this several times. It will eventually drive the insert out or damage the arrow if the insert is really glued in well.

Search in on YouTube, several videos on it.


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