Trophy versus cull criteria

[jheflinland]

I manage a lease with 17 hunters and I've been wrestling with creating good cull criteria for a while. We have 7,700 acres free range, protein fed year round, and we target 5.5 year old bucks and older. Val Verde County, edge of hill country/Chihuahua desert type country. Everyone gets 1 trophy buck, and we pick a few culls out from game camera pictures every year that are considered freebies.

A lot of the deer we label as culls are never seen during the season, and we get a lot of new bucks every year during the rut. We do not cull heavily, and most of the deer we label as culls are bucks we have had on camera for at least a couple years in a row. Our way of describing a cull until now has been "an older buck with crappy horns".

We don't cull spikes or deer with funky/lopsided racks. We don't cull just because something is missing brow tines. We aren't trying to alter genetics, which I believe is impossible in a low fence scenario.

We want to grow the biggest bucks we can. We make an "off limits" list of young potential based on trail cams every year.

Our average 5 year old buck is around 125 inches. Very top end is going to be 150. Low end is around 100.

I want to use age plus score as part of the cull criteria. I was leaning towards "5 yrs old or older and less than 120 inches", but I had a guy shoot a mature 119 inch 9 point last year that I think most of my hunters would have considered a trophy. (Heavier buck in photo below)

Now I'm leaning towards culls are "4 yrs old or older and under 115".

Trophies are 5.5 yrs old or older and over 115".

We might make some exceptions at times, like on middle aged bucks that don't look to have the potential to ever grow into a trophy.

The bucks that fall as "borderline" make this hard. I want to protect young bucks that have trophy potential. I don't want blood thirsty guys twisting and using the cull criteria just because they are looking for a reason to shoot a deer.

This would be easy if I had a small group of seasoned hunters, but I have a few guys that haven't hunted a lot and I end up with some turnover every year. It's tough to get 18 people on the same page.

What do you guys think about my proposed criteria, what do you use as criteria on your places, and how do you address those borderline bucks? Make a rule with no exceptions?

Photos to follow.

[jheflinland]

Cull from a couple years ago. He had gone downhill. Score is probably under 110.




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[texashunter56]

You might consider making a cull anything 5 or older with less than 8 points. Then do a score and age that everyone is agreable to for other culls. What % of your bucks are 5+? What % of your bucks have 10 or more points that are mature?

[jheflinland]

119 inch 9 point:






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[jheflinland]

Trophy versus cull criteria

Bucks that we are considering labeling as culls this year. Some of them are borderline and might score over 115.












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[JayB]

Thats a lot of mass on the 9...you sure he was only 5 years old? That one tat you called a cull in the 1st pic def looks like he had maxed out...old dear small horns...he may have been bigger a year or two before. That would be a good cull.

I think you may put a lot of pressure on younger hunters to try and score before shooting....but you can teach how to age on the hoof and get a little more accurate and then count points, as was already mentioned. Over 5 less than 8 points is a decent place to start. But, any criteria that you choose will be just as good as another.

[MEsquivel]

I cant say anything about your area. Im not really familiar with it.
But I think you need to consider is culling when they're younger, too.
Why wait for the cull to be a 5 or 6 year old 8 pointers?
Your 2,3,4 year old culls will breed your does just as well o better than your 5-6 year olds.

[jheflinland]

You might consider making a cull anything 5 or older with less than 8 points. Then do a score and age that everyone is agreable to for other culls. What % of your bucks are 5+? What % of your bucks have 10 or more points that are mature?

5 or older with less than 8 points is good, I like that.

We have a low percentage of 5 yr+ bucks right now.

I'm guessing 20% ish?

We are just recovering from the bad drought and don't have many bucks over 5 years old. Decent fawn crop in 2012 with quite a few that came 5 this year. We have only taken a handful of bucks each year since 2012. Our population has increased significantly since the drought with several good years of fawn crops in a row and we are going to have a lot of deer to harvest over the next several years.

Roughly half of the mature bucks have 10 or more points. There are a few 9 points, lots of 8 points, and none in my current inventory with less than 8 points.

There are a couple of 10 points we are considering labeling as culls this year (Short tines, short beams, narrow frames).

I don't consider a mature 8 or 9 point a cull by any means. Frame, tine length, beam length, mass, etc.. is more of a deciding factor to me.

[jheflinland]

I cant say anything about your area. Im not really familiar with it.
But I think you need to consider is culling when they're younger, too.
Why wait for the cull to be a 5 or 6 year old 8 pointers?
Your 2,3,4 year old culls will breed your does just as well o better than your 5-6 year olds.

I like big 8 points. Just because a deer is an 8 point at 6 yrs old on our place doesn't mean he is a cull.

We are considering culling at younger ages as well. Mainly to give the larger antlered bucks a better chance to be a dominant buck on our acreage, and in turn, have easier access to feed.

We aren't worried about them breeding. I'm a firm believer we cannot alter genetics through culling.

However, I do believe we can start taking out the low end, possibly at 3, but I need good, simple criteria.. how do I simplify it?

[jheflinland]

The possibilities are endless, but it can get really complicated..

3 yrs old or older with less than 8 points?

3 yrs old, under 100 inches?

4 yrs old, under 110 inches?

5 yrs old or older, under 115 inches?

Broken tines (including brows) count as points.

I see score as a lot bigger factor than number of points.

A 5 year old 120 inch 8 point is a trophy for our group. Some of our hunters will pass on them because they want a bigger deer, but they won't shoot them as culls either.

The heavy 9 point I posted above is a really nice deer that only scored 119. He was a sub 110" deer the year before.

I don't want to over-complicate it and take the fun out of hunting. What has worked for y'all?

[rattler03]

What is the goal of your culling program? Is it mainly to limit mouths on the range and increase the available nutrition for your better bucks? A high doe harvest rate will go a long way to helping out on that.

Regardless of the purpose, I think you are going to see better results if you start culling deer at a younger age than 5. I'd think that at 3.5 years old you should have a decent idea of what kind of potential a buck has. I'd cull the obvious low potential bucks starting at age 3.5, and let the in-between bucks walk that year. I'd then shoot any bucks over 4.5 years of age that don't seem to be up to snuff.

I'd do a game camera survey this year to try to determine what the average 3.5 and 4.5 year old bucks looks like. Next year I'd start culling all deer that are less than average at 3.5 years old, and maybe all bucks that aren't in the upper 1/3 at age 4.5 years old. I'd keep doing the game camera survey and adjust my criteria of average or top 1/3 as I get more data from years with different range conditions.

[texashunter56]

5 or older with less than 8 points is good, I like that.

We have a low percentage of 5 yr+ bucks right now.

I'm guessing 20% ish?

We are just recovering from the bad drought and don't have many bucks over 5 years old. Decent fawn crop in 2012 with quite a few that came 5 this year. We have only taken a handful of bucks each year since 2012. Our population has increased significantly since the drought with several good years of fawn crops in a row and we are going to have a lot of deer to harvest over the next several years.

Roughly half of the mature bucks have 10 or more points. There are a few 9 points, lots of 8 points, and none in my current inventory with less than 8 points.

There are a couple of 10 points we are considering labeling as culls this year (Short tines, short beams, narrow frames).

I don't consider a mature 8 or 9 point a cull by any means. Frame, tine length, beam length, mass, etc.. is more of a deciding factor to me.

Are you MLD? What is the average score of mature main frame 8's(not 8 with kickers or trash)? What is the biggest slick 8 killed over all the years and then for each of the past seasons? If the average 8 is 115 then I would consider something different than a B&C score and age. I would look at age only since you said a lot of bucks on TC never are seen and new ones show up. This would make it an easier call without history or TC pics. I would make it a mature 8pt or less as a cull(if the average 8 pt is under 120). It must be a slick 8 and any NT pt 1" or more that is counted as a point. I would then make every mature(mature age is your call for an age minimum) 9+ on point count a trophy. You could call one 8pt or under a management and one 9pt or over the trophy. There could then be exceptions to each buck that are agreed upon before they are shot. Just a thought and an easier way to break down cull(management) or trophy. I hate trying to make that many different people score and age deer. Aging is tough enough then throw a minimum or maximum score on top of that and it is a receipt for mistakes or butt hurt.

[Abcdj]

The great debate at our lease!

[jheflinland]

Are you MLD? What is the average score of mature main frame 8's(not 8 with kickers or trash)? What is the biggest slick 8 killed over all the years and then for each of the past seasons? If the average 8 is 115 then I would consider something different than a B&C score and age. I would look at age only since you said a lot of bucks on TC never are seen and new ones show up. This would make it an easier call without history or TC pics. I would make it a mature 8pt or less as a cull(if the average 8 pt is under 120). It must be a slick 8 and any NT pt 1" or more that is counted as a point. I would then make every mature(mature age is your call for an age minimum) 9+ on point count a trophy. You could call one 8pt or under a management and one 9pt or over the trophy. There could then be exceptions to each buck that are agreed upon before they are shot. Just a thought and an easier way to break down cull(management) or trophy. I hate trying to make that many different people score and age deer. Aging is tough enough then throw a minimum or maximum score on top of that and it is a receipt for mistakes or butt hurt.

We are not MLD.

The biggest 8 I can think of that we have ever killed was 125-ish.

The biggest 8 we have ever had on camera is probably around 130.

I don't know scores of every deer we have killed, but judging from harvests and TC photos, our average mature 8 is closer to 120 than 115. Top end for 8's around 130, low end around 110, some really old bucks that are on the end of a downhill slide could alter the low end.

[MEsquivel]

I like big 8 points. Just because a deer is an 8 point at 6 yrs old on our place doesn't mean he is a cull.

We are considering culling at younger ages as well. Mainly to give the larger antlered bucks a better chance to be a dominant buck on our acreage, and in turn, have easier access to feed.

We aren't worried about them breeding. I'm a firm believer we cannot alter genetics through culling.

However, I do believe we can start taking out the low end, possibly at 3, but I need good, simple criteria.. how do I simplify it?

You need to determine what you want out of your management program.
You do alter genetics by culling. Thats the point in doing it.
If you cull all the small (or genetically inferior bucks) and only leave big bucks around, your newborn nubbin's will most likely turn into big bucks. (Does too)

Here's an example of what we did in a ranch in south Texas.

1 y/o spike = cull
2 y/o 5 point or less = cull
3 y/o less than 8 point = cull
4 y/o less than 140" = cull

It was a pretty strict program. We took about 200 deer (including does) per year.
I do understand that there will be 1 y/o spikes that can turn into a 160 b&C at 6 or 7 y/o. But he has less of a chance than that yearling that has an 8 point rack.

Just as an example. The criteria in your place will be different. You decide.
Take whatever information you may find as helpful.
Good luck!